Agreed, Rosanne. I have no issues at all with framing devices, and as you say they can often be very helpful in orienting the reader. And I didn't have any objections to the device used in 'An Incident'. I found it beautiful. Nonetheless I'm confident it wouldn't survive the final drafts of most writers hereabouts, for the reasons given.
"And anything that happened me afterwards, I never felt the same about again". I think that story would be less, would suffer, without that line, that back end of the frame."
Complete agreement on this, and a superbly chosen example. And because it's shorter, subtler and less (apparently) boastful, most of us, even in the self-conscious, morally nervous 21st century, would be proud of that line if it was ours.
I’m a little late to this framing thread, but I wonder if one of the things the frame in this story does is to get the reader to feel more generously about the narrator than if the opening part of the frame was not included.
In paragraph 1, he describes himself as a misanthrope - and my first thought is, do I even want to read a story about a self-described misanthrope? But in the next paragraph, he immediately says that an incident aroused him from his ill temper. So I think, okay, something happened to make him change and maybe I will give this story a chance.
After the opening part of the frame, his description of himself becomes worse and worse, and it is not until paragraph 12 that his revelation about his lack of compassion begins. So, without the frame, I think I would have felt negatively about the narrator for much of the story, since I would not have known from the outset that he had changed.
Ah, Guests of the Nation was my gateway into short stories. I finished reading and anything that happened to me afterwards, I never felt the same about again.
Mine too, Niall and when I was reading George's comments on introductory and epilogue paragraphs, I thought of the ending of Frank O'Connor's story, the enormous emotional force of it! I remember the first time I read it... 1970, I was thirteen, imprisoned - as I saw it - in a catholic convent boarding school ... a grim winter evening and I'd run out of things to read so I borrowed an older girl's textbook - Exploring English 1 -and came across Guests of the Nation. I'd been an avid reader since I was about six, but mainly for escape or comfort or a laugh. After Guests of the Nation I think I became a different kind of reader, I started looking for stories that would make me feel part of 'it' all, get me thinking about things. I'll never forget that ending ( and anyone who hasn't read the story yet should skip this, but find that story and read it!) :
" Noble says he felt he seen everything ten times as big, perceiving nothing around him but the little patch of black bog with the two Englishmen stiffening into it; but with me it was the other way, as though the patch of bog where the two Englishmen were was a thousand miles away from me, and even Noble mumbling just behind me and the old woman and the birds and the bloody stars were all far away, and I was somehow very small and very lonely. And anything that ever happened me after I never felt the same about again"
On my first read I wanted to cut that whole ending, feeling that the story had already ended. But I understand it’s place from George’s comments. Have I read too much “modern” literature without framing that I can’t accept it in a story, even if it is done well?
Agreed, Rosanne. I have no issues at all with framing devices, and as you say they can often be very helpful in orienting the reader. And I didn't have any objections to the device used in 'An Incident'. I found it beautiful. Nonetheless I'm confident it wouldn't survive the final drafts of most writers hereabouts, for the reasons given.
"And anything that happened me afterwards, I never felt the same about again". I think that story would be less, would suffer, without that line, that back end of the frame."
Complete agreement on this, and a superbly chosen example. And because it's shorter, subtler and less (apparently) boastful, most of us, even in the self-conscious, morally nervous 21st century, would be proud of that line if it was ours.
I’m a little late to this framing thread, but I wonder if one of the things the frame in this story does is to get the reader to feel more generously about the narrator than if the opening part of the frame was not included.
In paragraph 1, he describes himself as a misanthrope - and my first thought is, do I even want to read a story about a self-described misanthrope? But in the next paragraph, he immediately says that an incident aroused him from his ill temper. So I think, okay, something happened to make him change and maybe I will give this story a chance.
After the opening part of the frame, his description of himself becomes worse and worse, and it is not until paragraph 12 that his revelation about his lack of compassion begins. So, without the frame, I think I would have felt negatively about the narrator for much of the story, since I would not have known from the outset that he had changed.
Ah, Guests of the Nation was my gateway into short stories. I finished reading and anything that happened to me afterwards, I never felt the same about again.
Mine too, Niall and when I was reading George's comments on introductory and epilogue paragraphs, I thought of the ending of Frank O'Connor's story, the enormous emotional force of it! I remember the first time I read it... 1970, I was thirteen, imprisoned - as I saw it - in a catholic convent boarding school ... a grim winter evening and I'd run out of things to read so I borrowed an older girl's textbook - Exploring English 1 -and came across Guests of the Nation. I'd been an avid reader since I was about six, but mainly for escape or comfort or a laugh. After Guests of the Nation I think I became a different kind of reader, I started looking for stories that would make me feel part of 'it' all, get me thinking about things. I'll never forget that ending ( and anyone who hasn't read the story yet should skip this, but find that story and read it!) :
" Noble says he felt he seen everything ten times as big, perceiving nothing around him but the little patch of black bog with the two Englishmen stiffening into it; but with me it was the other way, as though the patch of bog where the two Englishmen were was a thousand miles away from me, and even Noble mumbling just behind me and the old woman and the birds and the bloody stars were all far away, and I was somehow very small and very lonely. And anything that ever happened me after I never felt the same about again"
Just seen Rosanne's comment now, which also quotes this ending (I've just joined and am playing catch up)
Guests of the Nation is a great story. Many years ago, I saw Gregory Peck read it at the Mark Taper Forum. Thanks for reminding me.
On my first read I wanted to cut that whole ending, feeling that the story had already ended. But I understand it’s place from George’s comments. Have I read too much “modern” literature without framing that I can’t accept it in a story, even if it is done well?