Is it me or do others working on novels (as opposed to short stories) find workshops sort of meh?
I feel that most drafts of novels need the most work on issues that aren't necessarily apparent from reading 2,500-5,000 words at a time or on a line-level, e.g., rising action/stakes across scenes as the story builds to the end of an act.
Is it me or do others working on novels (as opposed to short stories) find workshops sort of meh?
I feel that most drafts of novels need the most work on issues that aren't necessarily apparent from reading 2,500-5,000 words at a time or on a line-level, e.g., rising action/stakes across scenes as the story builds to the end of an act.
Also, oddly, although I read other people's work multiple times before providing feedback, I never do the same with a novel as a reader, so I'm often left feeling there's something artificial and, possibly, misguided in my comments.
For example, right now I'm reading Deacon King Kong by James McBride, and I'm basically along for the ride. If I sat down with any 10-20 page segment, read it multiple times, would I find dozens (and dozens) of lines to comment on? Of course. But I'm not certain any of those comments would improve the story or my enjoyment of it as a reader.
It may not fly in a 'formal' workshop, but for novels, what I've found more useful is workshopping a beat sheet. It's the scene by scene structural stuff that gets discussed then.
Adding an excerpt of the text for context, clarity, to make sure things are coming across as intended or just to give a flavour of the tone and writing is then more a useful addendum rather than the main piece.
But you're right about the limited value of looking at 2-5K words. In a more structured workshop, you could always ask to send around the best sheet to give context to the scene, and hopefully move the discussion around to the larger issues of the novel.
Sonal, I love this concept of extending workshop to beat sheets. Workshops aren't just limited to MFA students. I'm in a critique group with award-winning novelists.
That assumes that most students understand (and can provide useful input) on a "beat sheet."
(It seems to me) Most MFA programs do a woeful job in teaching aspiring writers about novel writing, in part, as I noted in another comment, there's a palpable disdain for "plot," like it's a contradiction of "art."
Yes, there will always be those people like Curtis Sittenfeld who will workshop their novels for two years and come out with something pretty darn great. But that's the exception, right? In general, if you're an aspiring Walter Mosley or James McBride or Liane Moriarty, you may struggle to find the feedback that you need to grow as a writer in you're seeking it in MFA workshops.
Workshopping a novel is incredibly difficult, for both parties. You're instinct is correct: most novels need work on issues that wouldn't be apparent in a 5000 or even a 10,000 word section. However, if you have a good friend that knows your work and sensibilities, then I could see some benefits in giving them a peek behind the curtain.
I agree Butterfield. As someone who has never done an MFA, been in a writer's group (until a year ago) or a worksop apart from one week in 1983 I never shared my work with anyone. That changed when an editor suggested that I get a friend to read the m/s of a novel, which I did. The friend gave helpful advice (he was used to working with playwrights) and I basically re-wrote the whole novel.
That took a long time for various reasons. Since that incident I have sent work to two trusted writer friends who give excellent feedback. I'm really happy now also to be in a small writing group. My fellow writers' perspectives have really helped me see my work more clearly. I wish I had done all this a long time ago!!
I have dipped into a workshop that was specifically for working on novels. Everyone was working on a novel and they met every week and went through everyone’s book. It works in that context brilliantly and is also highly motivating!
I agree! With short stories, I love critical feedback. I seriously desire brutal honesty. But with a novel...not so much. I believe this relates to the slower meandering process of the 'hard-at-work subconscious.' Feedback for 20 pages of a novel, without knowledge of the rest of it, can make me stumble and lose the brain snapping excitement that (hopefully) carries me through to the end.
I think there's also something to be said that in many MFA programs plot is often treated as a dirty word.
It's sort of odd when you think about it. The market for short stories is essentially non-existent. Very few writers are making a living solely on their writing as it is. Are there any (these days) doing it solely by publishing short stories? Yet, the overwhelming emphasis in MFA programs is on short stories. Why is that? Why aren't more MFA programs teaching the next generation of Brett Easton Ellis or Elmore Leonard or John Green?
EDIT: I'm not necessarily saying commercially successful writing should be the focus of MFA programs. However, I don't understand why so many actively cultivate disdain for writers who excel at storytelling and can actually make a living from their writing (rather than producing "art" while being dependent on a spouse or another job or teaching).
Said differently, yes, Anna Karenina is brilliant in many ways. But I would never hand it to an aspiring novelist as a primer on how to learn the craft.
Bottom line: while the classics may be brilliant, few, if any, (including Anna Karenina) would be published as is today.
I suspect it might be because short stories are quicker to read, so give the opportunity for more feedback; and you have more opportunities to fail.
There's a story of a pottery class where the teacher told the class that half of them would get a mark based on the quality of their final piece, the other half on the total weight of pots they made. The latter didn't only produce more work (as you'd expect); the work they ended up doing was of a much higher standard than those graded only on their final piece.
I agree with you, as someone who submits novels and short stories to workshops. The problem with workshopping novels is that if you go past the first chapter or two, you have to feed the book in small segments to the writing group, and the emotion and tension of the novel will fade between sessions.
Haven't had the pleasure of a novel workshop so I couldn't say for sure, but I think looking at things piece by piece could be helpful. It's sort of what I'm trying to do now, albeit on my own.
Is it me or do others working on novels (as opposed to short stories) find workshops sort of meh?
I feel that most drafts of novels need the most work on issues that aren't necessarily apparent from reading 2,500-5,000 words at a time or on a line-level, e.g., rising action/stakes across scenes as the story builds to the end of an act.
Also, oddly, although I read other people's work multiple times before providing feedback, I never do the same with a novel as a reader, so I'm often left feeling there's something artificial and, possibly, misguided in my comments.
For example, right now I'm reading Deacon King Kong by James McBride, and I'm basically along for the ride. If I sat down with any 10-20 page segment, read it multiple times, would I find dozens (and dozens) of lines to comment on? Of course. But I'm not certain any of those comments would improve the story or my enjoyment of it as a reader.
It may not fly in a 'formal' workshop, but for novels, what I've found more useful is workshopping a beat sheet. It's the scene by scene structural stuff that gets discussed then.
Adding an excerpt of the text for context, clarity, to make sure things are coming across as intended or just to give a flavour of the tone and writing is then more a useful addendum rather than the main piece.
But you're right about the limited value of looking at 2-5K words. In a more structured workshop, you could always ask to send around the best sheet to give context to the scene, and hopefully move the discussion around to the larger issues of the novel.
Sonal, I love this concept of extending workshop to beat sheets. Workshops aren't just limited to MFA students. I'm in a critique group with award-winning novelists.
That assumes that most students understand (and can provide useful input) on a "beat sheet."
(It seems to me) Most MFA programs do a woeful job in teaching aspiring writers about novel writing, in part, as I noted in another comment, there's a palpable disdain for "plot," like it's a contradiction of "art."
Yes, there will always be those people like Curtis Sittenfeld who will workshop their novels for two years and come out with something pretty darn great. But that's the exception, right? In general, if you're an aspiring Walter Mosley or James McBride or Liane Moriarty, you may struggle to find the feedback that you need to grow as a writer in you're seeking it in MFA workshops.
Workshopping a novel is incredibly difficult, for both parties. You're instinct is correct: most novels need work on issues that wouldn't be apparent in a 5000 or even a 10,000 word section. However, if you have a good friend that knows your work and sensibilities, then I could see some benefits in giving them a peek behind the curtain.
I agree Butterfield. As someone who has never done an MFA, been in a writer's group (until a year ago) or a worksop apart from one week in 1983 I never shared my work with anyone. That changed when an editor suggested that I get a friend to read the m/s of a novel, which I did. The friend gave helpful advice (he was used to working with playwrights) and I basically re-wrote the whole novel.
That took a long time for various reasons. Since that incident I have sent work to two trusted writer friends who give excellent feedback. I'm really happy now also to be in a small writing group. My fellow writers' perspectives have really helped me see my work more clearly. I wish I had done all this a long time ago!!
I have dipped into a workshop that was specifically for working on novels. Everyone was working on a novel and they met every week and went through everyone’s book. It works in that context brilliantly and is also highly motivating!
Good to know.
Life goals.
I agree! With short stories, I love critical feedback. I seriously desire brutal honesty. But with a novel...not so much. I believe this relates to the slower meandering process of the 'hard-at-work subconscious.' Feedback for 20 pages of a novel, without knowledge of the rest of it, can make me stumble and lose the brain snapping excitement that (hopefully) carries me through to the end.
I think there's also something to be said that in many MFA programs plot is often treated as a dirty word.
It's sort of odd when you think about it. The market for short stories is essentially non-existent. Very few writers are making a living solely on their writing as it is. Are there any (these days) doing it solely by publishing short stories? Yet, the overwhelming emphasis in MFA programs is on short stories. Why is that? Why aren't more MFA programs teaching the next generation of Brett Easton Ellis or Elmore Leonard or John Green?
EDIT: I'm not necessarily saying commercially successful writing should be the focus of MFA programs. However, I don't understand why so many actively cultivate disdain for writers who excel at storytelling and can actually make a living from their writing (rather than producing "art" while being dependent on a spouse or another job or teaching).
Said differently, yes, Anna Karenina is brilliant in many ways. But I would never hand it to an aspiring novelist as a primer on how to learn the craft.
Bottom line: while the classics may be brilliant, few, if any, (including Anna Karenina) would be published as is today.
I suspect it might be because short stories are quicker to read, so give the opportunity for more feedback; and you have more opportunities to fail.
There's a story of a pottery class where the teacher told the class that half of them would get a mark based on the quality of their final piece, the other half on the total weight of pots they made. The latter didn't only produce more work (as you'd expect); the work they ended up doing was of a much higher standard than those graded only on their final piece.
I agree with you, as someone who submits novels and short stories to workshops. The problem with workshopping novels is that if you go past the first chapter or two, you have to feed the book in small segments to the writing group, and the emotion and tension of the novel will fade between sessions.
Haven't had the pleasure of a novel workshop so I couldn't say for sure, but I think looking at things piece by piece could be helpful. It's sort of what I'm trying to do now, albeit on my own.