You're welcome, Celeste. Everything we learn about storytelling from craft books, from our writing teachers, including this gift of teaching provided by George Saunders, and from each other is grist for the mill. You are going to teach yourself through writing and developing your own instinct of what works for the story. Readers follow that main character/narrator scene by scene, bird by bird. So glad you had this realization.
I want to add to this discussion before it's too late as it is filling me up to the brim with feelings of camaraderie and connection (Story Club Staples!) It is good to know that I am not the only one who faces these ghosts and demons. You have all named so many of them that I have come to know and face down, and even sometime befriend. Time, advancing age, talent (or lack thereof), worthiness, originality, rejection, life/work balance...oh so many. I have them all. Some of them are pests that won't go away, but some of them are helpful and keep me for losing track of those people and things that are keeping me afloat or from falling through the cracks. Or from writing a story that will fail to live up to its potential and mine.
But despite how spooky and difficult it is to keep facing these writerly worries, I do continue writing and so do so many of you, brave story clubbers, because we love to play in this sandbox, with language and ideas in the hopes that we will provide some comfort, or amusement, or impetus to bring about positive change, or if we are very good at this wordplay game, even shed a little light on the human condition and that mysterious, beautiful, separate and not equal, tragic comedy that is commonly called life. When I think of writing this way, as giving form to what I've lived and learned and hoped for, it's easier to separate myself from the words themselves, which really can be arranged in any way, shape, and form I think will make the story come alive for others. If I can pull this off, even for myself, I will be proud and happy. I'll admire my sandcastle before a giant baby or mean bully comes and stomps on it. Or a dog pees on it. Or I win first prize in the sandcastle building contest. And then, it'll be back to the minutia of measuring each tiny grain of sand, the seemingly never ending shoveling, scooping, and packing down, the architectural structure and artistic sculpture of moats, tunnels, and turrets, and the final finishing touches of seashells, feathers, and surprises.
The ghosts are now fully placated for me, for now. But they'll be back. It's almost as if they're a part of me.
But it seems to be so difficult to do. I have been inspired to write a fiction about a single dad. I started to work on the characters and plot. I have been writing Chapter 1 forever... That is work-in-progress no.1.
The other day, I saw 2 old men in a orange convertible car and then 2 foreigners with big body expression. That is a potential work-in-progress no. 2.
I think what I meant was that construction is done so far as you can tell for right now. Your character needs a world to push up against, and other characters who will try to help or stop him, and his own strengths and weaknesses for you to develop as you go deeper into the story. Once you have established a first chapter that has the essentials of your character's desire, world, and central conflict, and you feel like you can go on with your character, it's probably high time to keep writing.
You can always go back and tweak to your heart's content. I think George said something about how as he goes forward, there is a "revision shock wave" effect that sends him back through each previous section to provided "ballast and alignment." My writing teacher always tell us to keep writing and that we will revise again and again.
That first castle you made in Chapter 1 will weather quite a few wind storms and waves, but it will still be standing hopefully and will just need some finishing touches. Maybe it will even need a complete overhaul... You'll never be completely and perfectly done and finished, but as someone once said art is knowing when to stop. And when to move on.
Thank you for this Dee. This is so helpful. While reading Bird by Bird, I just had a realization to create a narrator that makes the story ties together. I would probably include your reply in one of my future newsletters :)
If nothing else, I tell myself I've created something that didn't exist before. As long as I'm doing my bit to push back against entropy, I figure its a win. Maybe not a big win, but still a win...
About our recent discussion on rejection (Lily, I think you first brought up the topic), there was the following in today's NYT. A new & I think brilliant take on an age-old problem that isn't so much a problem as it may be a way of being: unavoidable, discouraging sometimes, but not without its purpose.
Well, I know this NOW, but for a long time I sure didn't! Ha! Loved that crack about Jesus, writings long misunderstood, then he dies & the story is bungled by four guys who couldn't get the story straight, now zillions gather once a week to study the writings, a sort of "book club". Ha!
Ageism. That's the big thing for me now. It's not just that I have fewer years left to write, although that gives me a sense of urgency I find harder to dispel. It's the issue of my worth. Agents swear there's no "ageism" but they want young writers whose careers they can "mold." They want to be the next Maxwell Perkins. Yet, here I am, writing from more experience and understanding because I've lived longer. The gift of writing will be mine for as long as I'm a sentient being, and I'm grateful, but sometimes the "dismissal" is difficult to live with. That's why I'm shifting my focus to writing I can submit without reference to my age, where the work is all that's reviewed, and no one asks my age or anything else about me. Where my work is all that counts.
I’m late to this conversation— and so looking forward to our next installment of CommComm— but I did want to say how much I appreciate the question— and the addition of the Mazzoli quote. Years ago I read (though have not been able to find it) that Dostoyevsky said, “Man loves to achieve, but hates to have achieved” (gender bias, notwithstanding.) Those Russians, refusing to stand on their laurels! Still it’s seems true. What I witness. What I personally know.
It makes the question/issue of time that George raises so touching. I recently saw Lizzie Gottlieb’s doc about her Dad (editor) and Robert Caro (writer), chasing the clock to get 5th volume of Lyndon Johnson series finished, but unable, given depth of research and fastidiousness with sentences, to hurry the work. He’s 87!!
As to publishing. The whole enterprise of bringing one’s work out into the world stirs my anxiety. I had a wonderful writing teacher who said, Look, Gail, we’re all thirsty. You go to your corner of the desert and bring back what water you find, you offer it, and hope it will quench someone’s thirst.”
I especially love a response from George here in the chat which encourages us to widen the ground between work and self as it goes out into the world. It’s consoling to think that what starts with myself, my imagination, my obsessions, through all those iterations and revisions, becomes, something other— .
And yet. Regardless how wide that ground, rejection is still somewhere between a pain and a puzzle. It’s great when it comes with a glint of what might be done to make the work better. But this rarely happens. When I was in my 40’s, I circulated a manuscript that was getting favorable attention, but no one would publish it— one publisher included a long letter of apology. One told me I was too old (they were looking for younger writers) I mean he put this in a letter!!! And I won’t say which imprint but you’d be shocked. Another said it was one of 10 final manuscripts sitting on his desk when they could only take 8. On and on like this.
It was hard to come back from all that- I still write prose and poems, but turned my creative juices to film - which has its own challenges ($$$), but which, for all its crassness, involves a more transparent process.
Part of the allure of publishing for me has always been being a part of a community of writers, getting a seat at the table for lively and thoughtful conversation. And now, I have this here with all of you. Thank you, George Saunders for putting all those extra leaves in the table so we could all sit down and feast.
Gail, i absolutely loved that documentary you mention here (Turn Every Page). I'm so in awe of those two men, but mostly taken with Caro and his uber-mensh-ness! What a human! (Gottlieb actually was my father in law's editor and it was fun to see his books pop up during the film.) On another note, I'm with you completely on the wonder of having this community. Never in a million years would i have dreamed this could happen! And yet, here we all are, conversing and enjoying one another's company as we discuss this world we love so much. I'm sorry to hear your manuscript wasn't published. So incredibly frustrating. Never say never? Maybe it can still see the light of day?
I love your spirit, Mary, “Never say never.” The work seems now of a time— not that there aren’t some enduring qualities. It was started at the end of the last century when I felt a strong sense of foreboding. In fact the writing began in LA— I was here (as I am now) for work and felt the need (for myself and others) of a clarion call, Wake up! Wake up! Not that NYC didn’t offer the same- what with the daily risk of being bumped off sidewalks in Soho by folks with shopping bags. The writing came in a massive surge, like the house was on fire.
A year or so later (after the Twin Towers fell) I saw Roy Andersson’s film “Songs From the Second Floor,” and I felt a strange meld of vindication and validation - as in, oh you felt it, too.
What I most love about that dear manuscript is its original title, “K” which I may steal for something else.
Well, if that book you wrote is good and done and not speaking to you anymore, then perhaps it already served its purpose. (Still frustrating, though.) I'm guessing you learned a lot in the writing of it. "K" is a great title. Made me think immediately of The Brothers K which i read long ago. Somehow I missed the film you mentioned, but it looks amazing. I'm gonna try to track it down. (So you are in LA right now? I live here, too. Maybe we'll have the chance to cross paths one of these days.)
It’s a marvel, that film!! Your connection, so fun. I loved learning that Caro moved (for years) to LBJ’s small hometown in Texas for research. Talk about dedication!!! And the odd, but telling detail of Gottlieb’s penchant for collecting!
This, Gail, is what I'd call a perfect line: "It’s consoling to think that what starts with myself, my imagination, my obsessions, through all those iterations and revisions, becomes, something other." Yours! You may, as you say, have come late to the discussion, but you did not come empty-handed.
Thanks for this. I have such good memories of being in an MFA program and the comradery of the students and teachers and what eventually became an annual softball game that went on for a few years, but eventually dissolved as people moved away or assumed more responsibilities. Story Club has brought so much of this kind of thing back into my life, which I greatly appreciate.
What I sometimes wish for is to write without thinking too much about publishing, but at the same time there is such a joy in seeing something published that you've written. And then there's that fear that goes with beginning yet again....
So much of what we do has this ying/yang quality, doesn't it? We don't want, we do want; we should write this way (but not too much that way). That may be, ultimately, what this craft is all about - the distrust of any sort of auto-pilot, even when we crave its comforts.
Off topic but related -- I spent some time on the website you linked, that RH created for your work. The duet with Stephen Colbert is delightful! There are enticing media links to investigate further.
Yes, thanks for having a look. I love Colbert - really a genius. I mean, really. In person his presence and intelligence are palpable and a little terrifying. :)
I'm curious. "Presence" is a bit subjective so I won't ask you about that, but why do you say his intelligence is "palpable" and what makes it a little "terrifying" to you? Answer when you can. Interested in what you picked up that made you say this.
This was really clear for me when we did the old show - where the guest was set up as his adversary. In that setting, it was scary - he is such a fast mind and great improv person. You were always hanging in there at his discretion - and he was quite kind about it. When someone like me, who's not a TV person, gets in that setting, you can feel the special set of skills he's developed in that job.
Interesting. I don't know how pertinent it is, but I don't remember anyone else who went on Allen or Parr or Carson saying they were set up as the host's "adversary." They were there to plug their projects and in the case of Carson, often there to talk about something he thought the public would find interesting and informative.
Curious you don't call yourself a "TV person." I've watched any number of shows with you and you seem fine. You're yourself. You don't seem intimidated by being recorded. You're thoughtful on camera. You say complete sentences and paragraphs. You're certainly someone I'd book and talk just enough to keep you talking. (I've done a ton of interviews so have some feel of how to do it well.)
Anyway, thanks for your answer. I'm a malanky bit more knowledgable than I was before.
And as for "adversary" - that's in the context of the old show, The Colbert Report, on which he played a certain kind of right-wing pundit and that was the whole game - you, the liberal, we in his sights.
Have never watched Colbert. Sthick isn't interesting to me. Too bad Buckley isn't around. Buckley interviewing you would have been tres interesting.
Come to think of it, I'm a little surprised nobody's approached you about doing a show interviewing writers. You're a good guest, you're at ease with a camera, and you would know what questions to ask and expand on. My Korean Queen, IU, does an hour show called "Palette" where she has other musical groups on and they talk about making music and the life. All the groups are in awe of her because of her talent and longevity so they're happy to talk about their creative process and share their ups and downs since they know she went through years of misery and hard work to get where she is and there isn't any crap story they can tell her that she hasn't been through.
If you ever do, have me on. I'll tell you about the time I got screamed at, and I mean hold the phone away from your ear SCREAMED at, for ten minutes straight because a producer thought I made fun of his movie about a woman with a talking vagina. That was...something...
Not sure where I should post this, here, in the free part of the Story Club or in the paid subscription part. But I’m here and I have to share this. I just came up from the laundry room. While waiting for the clothes to dry I picked up an old New Yorker, 2019 , to read Hanif Kereishi’s short story. I did not know this writer, but I thought of you, George, because I could read the short story “He Said, She Said” and notice the rise of anticipation and the bowling pins tossed up in the air. Then I read Diana Treisman’s interview with him and he said this:
“As a writer, I don’t like to know too much about what I’m doing. I want to sit down at my desk with hope rather than certainty, and be surprised. “
And I thought of you again. And because I was sliding down the “rabbit hole” I found out that recently Kereishi very suddenly lost the use of his arms and legs! And then I discovered he has started a Substack! And I’m sitting here thinking about the surprises life throws at us and the connections we humans have to make...all of this is because I recently had a shock myself, and a loss...a friend of almost 40 years. These connections all felt like fate or karma. As a writer, and I’m speaking to you, Story Clubber, if you can connect through your writing to another human like me, it’s your gift. Thank you, each of you, for working so hard at your craft...but don’t try too hard to connect with me, just let your story begin with hope and be surprised and have fun.
Sue, this is beautiful. Thank you for sharing. Your telling of these things touched me with the discovery process and the synchronicity of writing combined with the uncertainty and terror of life (and writing). There’s so much there.
Sorry to hear about your friend, Sue. And yes - life will go along, all orderly, and suddenly the curtain gets drawn back and we see how conditional everything is.
Maybe that's one thing writing can (more safely) remind us of.
George, any words on worrying about rejection; (or to follow your lead of breaking worry down) and on worrying about having too strong a response to rejection.
Rejection sucks. But it happens all of the time. I've gotten rejections before with comments attached that suggested how I could improve my piece and I've been like a whiny five year-old about it. Or been rejected outright with a smug note (or so I felt). Wanted to slap many a rejector! We all hate rejection, but send your work out anyway. You'll fail 100% of the time on those pieces you never send out. Your odds on being published are much, much better! Everybody worries, though. You're just like everybody else.
I don't know if this will help, Lily, or if it's any consolation, but it took me a loooong time to learn not to take rejection personally, to separate the work I produce from the self that produces it. Odd, I know, & contradictory. As George has put it somewhere, what else do we really have to draw on but our selves. But as soon as I stopped worrying about rejection, just put that aside, & started focusing instead on what mattered to me, writing as honestly as I could about it, my writing automatically improved and was more often accepted & published. Not because I'm so wonderful. But because no one else was in the writing room with me---just me & the subject(s).
Thanks. yes, it's hard in the same long moment to admit in (accept) the range of good/horrible things --or positive reaction/neutral/not positive -- that's always around in this world.
I think a fear of rejection can be put to use - it's why I edit so hard. And if we say, "writing is one thing, I am another," that might allow us to, very calmly and even in a spirit of fun, ask, "OK, so what is it about this piece of writing that is causing it to be rejected?" Once we separate Person from Artwork, we can really ask (and not be afraid of the answer). Is to...too slow? "Normal." Does it flinch at a certain point? Has what is says been said many times before? And often, when we get to a point of honesty (let our defenses drop) we know what's lacking (we just didn't want to admit it, because, then, we'd be slow/normal/flinchy etc. But now it's not US, it's that collection of words. Which can be changed. :)
Yes, I think so - like, letting the story be what it wants to be, even if it's something you didn't want to happen or plan for, or that doesn't somehow "fit" with your idea of the sort of artist you are. The story is trying to teach you that. Very hard, being rejected, for sure. And it happens at every stage of one's career. So, it's very smart of you to ask this question, as part of the process of understanding rejection as something that is, for sure, going to happen, especially if you are taking risks.
“I don’t think “writing” and “being a good and happy person” are separate but I do think that if a person is just slightly “off” in his orientation toward writing and career and success, it can mess with the “being a good and happy person” part.”
Yes! When I’m writing (and all it entails; the editing, submitting, reading other writers; second eyeing a friends work) or improving, I’m good. On the beam & happy. When I’m not feeding myself properly, I’m off. Caught up in silly bickering’s like over-focusing on people, places & things I cannot change. Luckily, I’ve learned to stop pretty quickly & set myself right. The writing always puts me where I need to be. Right here, right now I’m writing this note in my journal to post. It’s always words that lead me to the heart of what matters. I love the “oppressing the comfortable” of your post. Writing is meant to startle the reader out of complacency. Even if the reader is me writing something I feel I have to get out there. One thing I’m reminded of when I read your stories is what my improv teacher stresses—“go there”. Go where you dare not. Write what you dare not & if and when there’s an uproar, remind them it’s “fiction” or play.
Lastly, the spambot has given us all a story prompt!!
I’ve not been here in a loooong time and decided to read your reply that landed in my inbox just now. And wow - exactly what I needed. Or as I like to say (as I point to my wrist), Right on time.
Especially this part:
“As for ‘on a roll, killing it, living the dream’– well, thanks for thinking that. The main deal there, I think, is to be grateful and keep things in proportion. I sometimes imagine that a person having success’s job is to be glad (yes, of course) but then mentally push that success (and the elation one tends to feel about it) over into….well, this metaphor is about to get complicated – I was going to say: push that elation/pride energy over into the pile of dough that is the forthcoming work.
So: take the energy of elation and pride, skim off a little for yourself, just for fun, then dedicate the rest of it, in the hope that the work to come will 1) be good and 2) leave somebody who reads it marginally better off.”
I had a big win last year, and I love the dough metaphor!! Yes.
I’ve recently begun my first grown-up stab at fiction after 2 decades of memoir and personal essays. I will take the lift from my win and roll that into this new adventure. I will surrender to its power to work whatever momentum it’s here to grace me with.
Excuse my curiousity, but I'm curious what made you decide to take the plunge now? Just wake up and go Today's the Day or something else.
I'll tell you something that helped me start writing fiction - bad movies. I watched a ton of those and realized that no matter how clunky my first tries were, I couldn't be any worse than those guys, and they were getting paid. I stood up, struck the classic pose with rising soundtrack and said I can do it Too!
So your notes are good. You express yourself well. You'll probably do just fine. Relax and enjoy the ride...
I’ve written some TV and film in the 90s, and a stab at a short story in the 80s, but I’ve been struggling with my second memoir for years, since my first one came out in 2015, actually. I began to have a bit of a breakthrough after a retreat in November, and then boom- a woman showed up in my mind and I had to write what she was seeing and feeling and thinking. And then I felt a huge freedom from this anonymity. I realized that all the things that have been a roadblock to writing the memoir are gone. I knew I could express so much more about what I think and feel through her.
I’m just in the bliss of free writing right now. I’ve reconnected with a character I abandoned 20 years ago from a screenplay I never finished and just writing scenes, moments, etc. and feeling connected to my true life course again.
Very cool. Writers' minds are very wierd from what I can tell, or at least mine feels that way. It always feels cat-like the way it will go away, then show up again meowing "Ok. Hre's what you're going to write." Plus, you get to reconnect to an anchor point of your past. How has your character changed. How have you changed. It should be an interesting journey for you.
I've reconnected with the journalistic side of me with my Substack. I was always good at banging out pieces (I started on newspapers and magazines writing against deadlines) but haven't done much for over a decade because I concentrated on fiction. So now I have a stack and its like working on a magazine again. Here's a topic. How do I make it interesting? How do I illustrate it? The writing feels good and its coming quickly, so something's working. I also have two fiction stories, including the silly, spur-of-the-moment "Mr. Saunders' Beavers" (I wasn't kidding) I'm letting simmer so writing mind seems gainfully employed at the moment. Beats it being on the street looking for trouble. Good luck...
Mine was hysterical:I have something I want to share with you - no period. I just laughed because I'd gotten one from Joyce Carol Oates (terrific Substack ): "I bring good tidings Lets converse"
Yeah, unfortunately that's a sign you've made it too - when people start glomming onto your user/subscription lists. (I didn't answer, of course, but now I'm curious what "your" special personal message was. A Saunders NFT for the low, low price of $50 dollars?)
We are so blessed to be a part of this. It seems unprecedented. Those of us who dreamed of studying writing but for whatever reasons did not. This has been an incredible ride/experience so far. Thank you George.
And I forget to say this, find a model novel that is a story like yours. Very helpful!
You're welcome, Celeste. Everything we learn about storytelling from craft books, from our writing teachers, including this gift of teaching provided by George Saunders, and from each other is grist for the mill. You are going to teach yourself through writing and developing your own instinct of what works for the story. Readers follow that main character/narrator scene by scene, bird by bird. So glad you had this realization.
I want to add to this discussion before it's too late as it is filling me up to the brim with feelings of camaraderie and connection (Story Club Staples!) It is good to know that I am not the only one who faces these ghosts and demons. You have all named so many of them that I have come to know and face down, and even sometime befriend. Time, advancing age, talent (or lack thereof), worthiness, originality, rejection, life/work balance...oh so many. I have them all. Some of them are pests that won't go away, but some of them are helpful and keep me for losing track of those people and things that are keeping me afloat or from falling through the cracks. Or from writing a story that will fail to live up to its potential and mine.
But despite how spooky and difficult it is to keep facing these writerly worries, I do continue writing and so do so many of you, brave story clubbers, because we love to play in this sandbox, with language and ideas in the hopes that we will provide some comfort, or amusement, or impetus to bring about positive change, or if we are very good at this wordplay game, even shed a little light on the human condition and that mysterious, beautiful, separate and not equal, tragic comedy that is commonly called life. When I think of writing this way, as giving form to what I've lived and learned and hoped for, it's easier to separate myself from the words themselves, which really can be arranged in any way, shape, and form I think will make the story come alive for others. If I can pull this off, even for myself, I will be proud and happy. I'll admire my sandcastle before a giant baby or mean bully comes and stomps on it. Or a dog pees on it. Or I win first prize in the sandcastle building contest. And then, it'll be back to the minutia of measuring each tiny grain of sand, the seemingly never ending shoveling, scooping, and packing down, the architectural structure and artistic sculpture of moats, tunnels, and turrets, and the final finishing touches of seashells, feathers, and surprises.
The ghosts are now fully placated for me, for now. But they'll be back. It's almost as if they're a part of me.
Love your metaphor of sandbox amd samdcastle. It is forever a evolving and it never fails to amaze me the infinite amount of stories I can tell.
Yes, we are storytelling creatures. For me, it seems one of the many tricks to master is staying with the same one until construction is completed!
But it seems to be so difficult to do. I have been inspired to write a fiction about a single dad. I started to work on the characters and plot. I have been writing Chapter 1 forever... That is work-in-progress no.1.
The other day, I saw 2 old men in a orange convertible car and then 2 foreigners with big body expression. That is a potential work-in-progress no. 2.
Hi Celeste,
I think what I meant was that construction is done so far as you can tell for right now. Your character needs a world to push up against, and other characters who will try to help or stop him, and his own strengths and weaknesses for you to develop as you go deeper into the story. Once you have established a first chapter that has the essentials of your character's desire, world, and central conflict, and you feel like you can go on with your character, it's probably high time to keep writing.
You can always go back and tweak to your heart's content. I think George said something about how as he goes forward, there is a "revision shock wave" effect that sends him back through each previous section to provided "ballast and alignment." My writing teacher always tell us to keep writing and that we will revise again and again.
That first castle you made in Chapter 1 will weather quite a few wind storms and waves, but it will still be standing hopefully and will just need some finishing touches. Maybe it will even need a complete overhaul... You'll never be completely and perfectly done and finished, but as someone once said art is knowing when to stop. And when to move on.
Thank you for this Dee. This is so helpful. While reading Bird by Bird, I just had a realization to create a narrator that makes the story ties together. I would probably include your reply in one of my future newsletters :)
If nothing else, I tell myself I've created something that didn't exist before. As long as I'm doing my bit to push back against entropy, I figure its a win. Maybe not a big win, but still a win...
About our recent discussion on rejection (Lily, I think you first brought up the topic), there was the following in today's NYT. A new & I think brilliant take on an age-old problem that isn't so much a problem as it may be a way of being: unavoidable, discouraging sometimes, but not without its purpose.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/11/books/review/writers-failure-joyce-melville-boethius.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
A Writer’s Lament: The Better You Write, the More You Will Fail
Thank you for this link, Rosanne. We know all this, but it's good to be reminded.
Well, I know this NOW, but for a long time I sure didn't! Ha! Loved that crack about Jesus, writings long misunderstood, then he dies & the story is bungled by four guys who couldn't get the story straight, now zillions gather once a week to study the writings, a sort of "book club". Ha!
Ageism. That's the big thing for me now. It's not just that I have fewer years left to write, although that gives me a sense of urgency I find harder to dispel. It's the issue of my worth. Agents swear there's no "ageism" but they want young writers whose careers they can "mold." They want to be the next Maxwell Perkins. Yet, here I am, writing from more experience and understanding because I've lived longer. The gift of writing will be mine for as long as I'm a sentient being, and I'm grateful, but sometimes the "dismissal" is difficult to live with. That's why I'm shifting my focus to writing I can submit without reference to my age, where the work is all that's reviewed, and no one asks my age or anything else about me. Where my work is all that counts.
God bless you for this post!
And hope the muse camps out on your shoulder for the rest of your years.
I’m late to this conversation— and so looking forward to our next installment of CommComm— but I did want to say how much I appreciate the question— and the addition of the Mazzoli quote. Years ago I read (though have not been able to find it) that Dostoyevsky said, “Man loves to achieve, but hates to have achieved” (gender bias, notwithstanding.) Those Russians, refusing to stand on their laurels! Still it’s seems true. What I witness. What I personally know.
It makes the question/issue of time that George raises so touching. I recently saw Lizzie Gottlieb’s doc about her Dad (editor) and Robert Caro (writer), chasing the clock to get 5th volume of Lyndon Johnson series finished, but unable, given depth of research and fastidiousness with sentences, to hurry the work. He’s 87!!
As to publishing. The whole enterprise of bringing one’s work out into the world stirs my anxiety. I had a wonderful writing teacher who said, Look, Gail, we’re all thirsty. You go to your corner of the desert and bring back what water you find, you offer it, and hope it will quench someone’s thirst.”
I especially love a response from George here in the chat which encourages us to widen the ground between work and self as it goes out into the world. It’s consoling to think that what starts with myself, my imagination, my obsessions, through all those iterations and revisions, becomes, something other— .
And yet. Regardless how wide that ground, rejection is still somewhere between a pain and a puzzle. It’s great when it comes with a glint of what might be done to make the work better. But this rarely happens. When I was in my 40’s, I circulated a manuscript that was getting favorable attention, but no one would publish it— one publisher included a long letter of apology. One told me I was too old (they were looking for younger writers) I mean he put this in a letter!!! And I won’t say which imprint but you’d be shocked. Another said it was one of 10 final manuscripts sitting on his desk when they could only take 8. On and on like this.
It was hard to come back from all that- I still write prose and poems, but turned my creative juices to film - which has its own challenges ($$$), but which, for all its crassness, involves a more transparent process.
Part of the allure of publishing for me has always been being a part of a community of writers, getting a seat at the table for lively and thoughtful conversation. And now, I have this here with all of you. Thank you, George Saunders for putting all those extra leaves in the table so we could all sit down and feast.
Gail, i absolutely loved that documentary you mention here (Turn Every Page). I'm so in awe of those two men, but mostly taken with Caro and his uber-mensh-ness! What a human! (Gottlieb actually was my father in law's editor and it was fun to see his books pop up during the film.) On another note, I'm with you completely on the wonder of having this community. Never in a million years would i have dreamed this could happen! And yet, here we all are, conversing and enjoying one another's company as we discuss this world we love so much. I'm sorry to hear your manuscript wasn't published. So incredibly frustrating. Never say never? Maybe it can still see the light of day?
I love your spirit, Mary, “Never say never.” The work seems now of a time— not that there aren’t some enduring qualities. It was started at the end of the last century when I felt a strong sense of foreboding. In fact the writing began in LA— I was here (as I am now) for work and felt the need (for myself and others) of a clarion call, Wake up! Wake up! Not that NYC didn’t offer the same- what with the daily risk of being bumped off sidewalks in Soho by folks with shopping bags. The writing came in a massive surge, like the house was on fire.
A year or so later (after the Twin Towers fell) I saw Roy Andersson’s film “Songs From the Second Floor,” and I felt a strange meld of vindication and validation - as in, oh you felt it, too.
What I most love about that dear manuscript is its original title, “K” which I may steal for something else.
Well, if that book you wrote is good and done and not speaking to you anymore, then perhaps it already served its purpose. (Still frustrating, though.) I'm guessing you learned a lot in the writing of it. "K" is a great title. Made me think immediately of The Brothers K which i read long ago. Somehow I missed the film you mentioned, but it looks amazing. I'm gonna try to track it down. (So you are in LA right now? I live here, too. Maybe we'll have the chance to cross paths one of these days.)
Yes. I’m here til at least til the 22nd. Crossing paths would be a treat.
Got it!
It’s a marvel, that film!! Your connection, so fun. I loved learning that Caro moved (for years) to LBJ’s small hometown in Texas for research. Talk about dedication!!! And the odd, but telling detail of Gottlieb’s penchant for collecting!
Handbags! So unexpected!!
Shocking!
That shot of their bedroom!!
hilarious
Beautiful thoughts, Gail, and fie on those ageist dummies. Their loss. Thanks so much for this generous & enlightening post.
🙏
This, Gail, is what I'd call a perfect line: "It’s consoling to think that what starts with myself, my imagination, my obsessions, through all those iterations and revisions, becomes, something other." Yours! You may, as you say, have come late to the discussion, but you did not come empty-handed.
Thank you, Rosanne. Sweet validation.
Anybody who could write that line--perfect & truthful--already knows & needs no validation, but thank you all the same.
Thanks for this. I have such good memories of being in an MFA program and the comradery of the students and teachers and what eventually became an annual softball game that went on for a few years, but eventually dissolved as people moved away or assumed more responsibilities. Story Club has brought so much of this kind of thing back into my life, which I greatly appreciate.
What I sometimes wish for is to write without thinking too much about publishing, but at the same time there is such a joy in seeing something published that you've written. And then there's that fear that goes with beginning yet again....
So much of what we do has this ying/yang quality, doesn't it? We don't want, we do want; we should write this way (but not too much that way). That may be, ultimately, what this craft is all about - the distrust of any sort of auto-pilot, even when we crave its comforts.
Yes, thanks. Yin/yang. Can’t have one w/o the other. Truth. It’s rarely easy.
Off topic but related -- I spent some time on the website you linked, that RH created for your work. The duet with Stephen Colbert is delightful! There are enticing media links to investigate further.
Yes, thanks for having a look. I love Colbert - really a genius. I mean, really. In person his presence and intelligence are palpable and a little terrifying. :)
I'm curious. "Presence" is a bit subjective so I won't ask you about that, but why do you say his intelligence is "palpable" and what makes it a little "terrifying" to you? Answer when you can. Interested in what you picked up that made you say this.
This was really clear for me when we did the old show - where the guest was set up as his adversary. In that setting, it was scary - he is such a fast mind and great improv person. You were always hanging in there at his discretion - and he was quite kind about it. When someone like me, who's not a TV person, gets in that setting, you can feel the special set of skills he's developed in that job.
Interesting. I don't know how pertinent it is, but I don't remember anyone else who went on Allen or Parr or Carson saying they were set up as the host's "adversary." They were there to plug their projects and in the case of Carson, often there to talk about something he thought the public would find interesting and informative.
Curious you don't call yourself a "TV person." I've watched any number of shows with you and you seem fine. You're yourself. You don't seem intimidated by being recorded. You're thoughtful on camera. You say complete sentences and paragraphs. You're certainly someone I'd book and talk just enough to keep you talking. (I've done a ton of interviews so have some feel of how to do it well.)
Anyway, thanks for your answer. I'm a malanky bit more knowledgable than I was before.
Well, practice, practice, practice. :)
And as for "adversary" - that's in the context of the old show, The Colbert Report, on which he played a certain kind of right-wing pundit and that was the whole game - you, the liberal, we in his sights.
Have never watched Colbert. Sthick isn't interesting to me. Too bad Buckley isn't around. Buckley interviewing you would have been tres interesting.
Come to think of it, I'm a little surprised nobody's approached you about doing a show interviewing writers. You're a good guest, you're at ease with a camera, and you would know what questions to ask and expand on. My Korean Queen, IU, does an hour show called "Palette" where she has other musical groups on and they talk about making music and the life. All the groups are in awe of her because of her talent and longevity so they're happy to talk about their creative process and share their ups and downs since they know she went through years of misery and hard work to get where she is and there isn't any crap story they can tell her that she hasn't been through.
If you ever do, have me on. I'll tell you about the time I got screamed at, and I mean hold the phone away from your ear SCREAMED at, for ten minutes straight because a producer thought I made fun of his movie about a woman with a talking vagina. That was...something...
Anyway, thanks again.
M.
Not sure where I should post this, here, in the free part of the Story Club or in the paid subscription part. But I’m here and I have to share this. I just came up from the laundry room. While waiting for the clothes to dry I picked up an old New Yorker, 2019 , to read Hanif Kereishi’s short story. I did not know this writer, but I thought of you, George, because I could read the short story “He Said, She Said” and notice the rise of anticipation and the bowling pins tossed up in the air. Then I read Diana Treisman’s interview with him and he said this:
“As a writer, I don’t like to know too much about what I’m doing. I want to sit down at my desk with hope rather than certainty, and be surprised. “
And I thought of you again. And because I was sliding down the “rabbit hole” I found out that recently Kereishi very suddenly lost the use of his arms and legs! And then I discovered he has started a Substack! And I’m sitting here thinking about the surprises life throws at us and the connections we humans have to make...all of this is because I recently had a shock myself, and a loss...a friend of almost 40 years. These connections all felt like fate or karma. As a writer, and I’m speaking to you, Story Clubber, if you can connect through your writing to another human like me, it’s your gift. Thank you, each of you, for working so hard at your craft...but don’t try too hard to connect with me, just let your story begin with hope and be surprised and have fun.
Sue, this is beautiful. Thank you for sharing. Your telling of these things touched me with the discovery process and the synchronicity of writing combined with the uncertainty and terror of life (and writing). There’s so much there.
Sorry to hear about your friend, Sue. And yes - life will go along, all orderly, and suddenly the curtain gets drawn back and we see how conditional everything is.
Maybe that's one thing writing can (more safely) remind us of.
Excellent, Sue.
George, any words on worrying about rejection; (or to follow your lead of breaking worry down) and on worrying about having too strong a response to rejection.
Rejection sucks. But it happens all of the time. I've gotten rejections before with comments attached that suggested how I could improve my piece and I've been like a whiny five year-old about it. Or been rejected outright with a smug note (or so I felt). Wanted to slap many a rejector! We all hate rejection, but send your work out anyway. You'll fail 100% of the time on those pieces you never send out. Your odds on being published are much, much better! Everybody worries, though. You're just like everybody else.
I don't know if this will help, Lily, or if it's any consolation, but it took me a loooong time to learn not to take rejection personally, to separate the work I produce from the self that produces it. Odd, I know, & contradictory. As George has put it somewhere, what else do we really have to draw on but our selves. But as soon as I stopped worrying about rejection, just put that aside, & started focusing instead on what mattered to me, writing as honestly as I could about it, my writing automatically improved and was more often accepted & published. Not because I'm so wonderful. But because no one else was in the writing room with me---just me & the subject(s).
Thanks. yes, it's hard in the same long moment to admit in (accept) the range of good/horrible things --or positive reaction/neutral/not positive -- that's always around in this world.
I think a fear of rejection can be put to use - it's why I edit so hard. And if we say, "writing is one thing, I am another," that might allow us to, very calmly and even in a spirit of fun, ask, "OK, so what is it about this piece of writing that is causing it to be rejected?" Once we separate Person from Artwork, we can really ask (and not be afraid of the answer). Is to...too slow? "Normal." Does it flinch at a certain point? Has what is says been said many times before? And often, when we get to a point of honesty (let our defenses drop) we know what's lacking (we just didn't want to admit it, because, then, we'd be slow/normal/flinchy etc. But now it's not US, it's that collection of words. Which can be changed. :)
Thanks. I guess the act of separating is also in the idea of letting the character happen, letting the piece come up with itself, surprise oneself ?
Yes, I think so - like, letting the story be what it wants to be, even if it's something you didn't want to happen or plan for, or that doesn't somehow "fit" with your idea of the sort of artist you are. The story is trying to teach you that. Very hard, being rejected, for sure. And it happens at every stage of one's career. So, it's very smart of you to ask this question, as part of the process of understanding rejection as something that is, for sure, going to happen, especially if you are taking risks.
“Is it too slow? Normal? Does it flinch?” My heart leapt at this.
In response to:
“I don’t think “writing” and “being a good and happy person” are separate but I do think that if a person is just slightly “off” in his orientation toward writing and career and success, it can mess with the “being a good and happy person” part.”
Yes! When I’m writing (and all it entails; the editing, submitting, reading other writers; second eyeing a friends work) or improving, I’m good. On the beam & happy. When I’m not feeding myself properly, I’m off. Caught up in silly bickering’s like over-focusing on people, places & things I cannot change. Luckily, I’ve learned to stop pretty quickly & set myself right. The writing always puts me where I need to be. Right here, right now I’m writing this note in my journal to post. It’s always words that lead me to the heart of what matters. I love the “oppressing the comfortable” of your post. Writing is meant to startle the reader out of complacency. Even if the reader is me writing something I feel I have to get out there. One thing I’m reminded of when I read your stories is what my improv teacher stresses—“go there”. Go where you dare not. Write what you dare not & if and when there’s an uproar, remind them it’s “fiction” or play.
Lastly, the spambot has given us all a story prompt!!
Yep, to all, Lucinda!
Thank you, George. This was really beautiful. Somehow it made be breathe a little easier.
Thanks!
George, this post moved me to tears. If the goal of being a writer is to find oneself rather than to strut your stuff, you are succeeding wildly.
Thank you, Dan. :)
I’ve not been here in a loooong time and decided to read your reply that landed in my inbox just now. And wow - exactly what I needed. Or as I like to say (as I point to my wrist), Right on time.
Especially this part:
“As for ‘on a roll, killing it, living the dream’– well, thanks for thinking that. The main deal there, I think, is to be grateful and keep things in proportion. I sometimes imagine that a person having success’s job is to be glad (yes, of course) but then mentally push that success (and the elation one tends to feel about it) over into….well, this metaphor is about to get complicated – I was going to say: push that elation/pride energy over into the pile of dough that is the forthcoming work.
So: take the energy of elation and pride, skim off a little for yourself, just for fun, then dedicate the rest of it, in the hope that the work to come will 1) be good and 2) leave somebody who reads it marginally better off.”
I had a big win last year, and I love the dough metaphor!! Yes.
I’ve recently begun my first grown-up stab at fiction after 2 decades of memoir and personal essays. I will take the lift from my win and roll that into this new adventure. I will surrender to its power to work whatever momentum it’s here to grace me with.
Your kind heart is much appreciated.
🙏🏻💜🙏🏻
Excuse my curiousity, but I'm curious what made you decide to take the plunge now? Just wake up and go Today's the Day or something else.
I'll tell you something that helped me start writing fiction - bad movies. I watched a ton of those and realized that no matter how clunky my first tries were, I couldn't be any worse than those guys, and they were getting paid. I stood up, struck the classic pose with rising soundtrack and said I can do it Too!
So your notes are good. You express yourself well. You'll probably do just fine. Relax and enjoy the ride...
I love that stance!
And…such a great question. Thank you for asking.
I’ve written some TV and film in the 90s, and a stab at a short story in the 80s, but I’ve been struggling with my second memoir for years, since my first one came out in 2015, actually. I began to have a bit of a breakthrough after a retreat in November, and then boom- a woman showed up in my mind and I had to write what she was seeing and feeling and thinking. And then I felt a huge freedom from this anonymity. I realized that all the things that have been a roadblock to writing the memoir are gone. I knew I could express so much more about what I think and feel through her.
I’m just in the bliss of free writing right now. I’ve reconnected with a character I abandoned 20 years ago from a screenplay I never finished and just writing scenes, moments, etc. and feeling connected to my true life course again.
I’m so happy.
I like this: "in the bliss of free writing." Good luck with the 2nd memoir, Kelly.
😉🙌🏻
Very cool. Writers' minds are very wierd from what I can tell, or at least mine feels that way. It always feels cat-like the way it will go away, then show up again meowing "Ok. Hre's what you're going to write." Plus, you get to reconnect to an anchor point of your past. How has your character changed. How have you changed. It should be an interesting journey for you.
I've reconnected with the journalistic side of me with my Substack. I was always good at banging out pieces (I started on newspapers and magazines writing against deadlines) but haven't done much for over a decade because I concentrated on fiction. So now I have a stack and its like working on a magazine again. Here's a topic. How do I make it interesting? How do I illustrate it? The writing feels good and its coming quickly, so something's working. I also have two fiction stories, including the silly, spur-of-the-moment "Mr. Saunders' Beavers" (I wasn't kidding) I'm letting simmer so writing mind seems gainfully employed at the moment. Beats it being on the street looking for trouble. Good luck...
Re: the SPAM attempt. The worst of it would be if word somehow went out that George does not know how to use the apostrophe.
Mine was hysterical:I have something I want to share with you - no period. I just laughed because I'd gotten one from Joyce Carol Oates (terrific Substack ): "I bring good tidings Lets converse"
Spam from the Illiterati 😳😎
That one sounds like Darth Vader to me. “I bring good tidings: I am your father!”
HAHAHAH. Literally made me laugh out loud.
"May the force be with you CLICK HERE for more force"
And for more R2 units! You will regret to not click!
😎😳🎈
Re these messages that say I want to text you.....SPAM.
That isn't me. I do all of my texting right here AND, if I never need to get hold of anyone, I have the emails that you subscribed with.
Yeah, unfortunately that's a sign you've made it too - when people start glomming onto your user/subscription lists. (I didn't answer, of course, but now I'm curious what "your" special personal message was. A Saunders NFT for the low, low price of $50 dollars?)
They tried to bait us with information about writing, of course. Difficult to resist.
I almost believed Joyce Carol. Went so far as to check the number, which checks out okay. Then I got GS with the identical number & bingo. Sigh.
Oh, that's interesting---the same number? I didn't realize JCO also has a stack. Hmm. Whoever it is isn't so good with the grammar!
Bot-speak! Let’s put them into a short story and go after them!
🎺🌷
Wow, what a question! And the response...
We are so blessed to be a part of this. It seems unprecedented. Those of us who dreamed of studying writing but for whatever reasons did not. This has been an incredible ride/experience so far. Thank you George.
Thank you for being here, Jason.