Perhaps I'm alone here, but i do not see a difference between George's teaching and his writing. Certainly, some of his stories go to a dark place, but that dark place is recognizable to me--places that reflect the darkness I see in the world today. To me, when i reflect on George's stories, what I think of are highly moral stories with moral quandaries for very human characters--no matter where they are placed in time/space. And what I see are endings that, for the most part, celebrate humanity and the decisions we humans must make on a daily basis. Will we be good people? or will we turn away from the good? (I'm sure there are stories that do not fit my description, but this is how I see George's stories--my takeaway. And so I am happy with my interpretation.)
As far as George's teachings here in Story Club and in his book on writing, what he offers us here is in full display in his fiction. His stories all escalate, they have causation, they build curiosity in the reader, they generate a reaction, and so on and so forth. Everything George has taught us about stories can be found in his stories. I see a lot of people asking George here to analyze one of his own stories and that would be fantastic. But i think we can do a lot of that on our own. Remember pulses? You can read one of George's stories and divide it into pulses, and then see how each pulse causes the next one. You can see where his characters are pushed forward, and you can find the moment that his characters must make a decision that defines them. You can see how active his voice is and how active his characters are. And on and on. It's all there, on the page. (But yes, let's do it together, with George leading us. That would be super.)
On another note, I want to thank everyone here in Story Club for the past year of connection, conversation, and friendship. This has been an experience like no other. The meeting of minds here has been so beautiful. Thank you to those of you who have gone deep with me here, and who have allowed me to go on and on and on. I've learned so much from all of you, and from George. Here's to a happy new year for all of us. This substack is my definition of joy--which to me is an active word, something that happens in the present moment, and which is most often found in the company of others, in shared experiences. Here's to many, many more months of shared thoughts and dreams, and lots of writing. xoxox
A privilege, for sure, to get to know you and our Story Club community. It’s Christmas every Sunday and Thursday, all year long!
I love how you parse George’s fiction against the “tenets” of his teaching — and I agree — it’s a one to one match. He practices what he preaches. And I love how you lay out his lessons! (I’d almost forgotten “pulses.” )
I think the questioner was perplexed about the difference in style of each— George’s teaching is no less rigorous than his fiction writing, but more colloquial and perhaps, more user friendly— the worlds crafted in his stories often require a suspension of the familiar, even some mind-muscle to enter. There’s an austerity— a sense of every word if not sentence measured against necessity. The combination of strangeness with austerity— well it can be foreboding — I’ve given his fiction to friends who are avid readers and not all of them take to it like I do. His work has a combination of qualities I especially like: cold eye/warm heart.
I agree--the gifts just keep coming, twice a week! George's posts are like short sermons, to be savored and pondered. In many ways, story club is less about how to write and more about how to live. Or perhaps the two are equal.
I actually loved that the questioner wrote this regarding reading George's works: "I am shocked by how little I connect with the stories." I mean, on some level, I think that statement is just fantastic and to be celebrated. What a validation of the mystery of fiction! What a world we live in where we all have our own minds, opinions, ideas, dreams, realities....! To not connect with George's stories--well, that is perfectly valid. And it tells the questioner so much about themselves--about their likes and dislikes, about their tolerance or lack of same for strangeness, about their notions of what a (good) story is, and about the fact that we are all in our own skin bags, held up by our bones, and seeing the world through the limited perceptions of our brains. It's amazing to be alive! Maybe at some other point in life, that questioner will try George's stories again and they will click. Human and story will connect. But if not--oh, well. That's perfectly okay, too. In the meantime, what a great takeaway--that George contains multitudes, as do we all.
Thank you, Mary. Why do I feel that Story Time Club (and this entire planet) would be so much less marvelous without your love, insights and perspectives? I was already having a mind-opening day and now it’s soul-opening and heart-opening too. I am so grateful for every thought and word you have shared over the past year. What a lift!!
I should also thank everyone else on here. I believe you led the way, Mary, in encouraging all of us to just throw our whole selves into these comments sections. And we’ve taken you up on it! Everyone here just blows me away. A recent example: the way Anika wrote about her experience with Midnight’s Children a few days ago really got me. I had tried to read it ten or fifteen years ago and it wasn’t working. But I went to the Olympia BN last night to do a little Christmas shopping and bought myself a few presents also: Liberation Day, My Year Of Rest and Relaxation, a book of stories by Cynthia Ozick, Mercury Pictures Presents, and two Rushdie novels. MC looks wonderful from word one. So what changed? All of us here, turning one another on to stories, novels, theory, films, thoughts, emotions, concepts, exercises, ideas, and humor. I can’t thank you all enough! Looking forward to more life, words, love and laughter!
I agree with you, Mary, but also can see how it could feel like a "disconnect" as well. Before Story Club, I had read (and loved) "Lincoln in the Bardo" and "A Swim in a Pond . . . ." I think because it had been a while since reading "Lincoln in the Bardo," the "voice" I associated with George was the voice of "A Swim in a Pond" and Story Club. And so, when I started reading the stories in "Tenth of December" a few months ago, I definitely had a few moments of, "whoa, this is not what I was expecting . . . " But I am totally with you that, while the voice/style/whatever of the short stories is different, it's not as if they exist on some plane that is alien to all that we have been talking about here at Story Club. (And I had such a delightful moment of connection between Story Club and the story "Liberation Day" when Jeremy laments "several bowling pins" left in the air due to interrpution of his performance/story.)
I do think some stories just speak to us. Like they are just in tune. And others require a little more work from us. Sometimes, with a Story Club story, on first read I am not sure I get why it is a "great" short story. But the discussions about how the stories work have been so wonderful, and have increased my appreciation for the stories I was initially skeptical about. Some of George's stories resonate with me right away . . . and with some, I have to push past a first reaction that this may not be "my kind of story." If I've learned anything in Story Club, it is that it can be really rewarding to open myself to stories that I don't fall in love with right away.
I joined Story Club to help me be a better writer. I think I'm a better writer than when I started. But what I do know for certain is that Story Club has helped me be a better reader. I'm not always able to read/comment right away, but I read every post and as many comments as I can manage, and I am tremendously grateful to George and to all the Story Clubbers who comment, submit questions, etc.
Hey Melissa. Thanks for commenting. I think because I read George's short stories first, and only then read Bardo, followed by Swim, that I perhaps had an easier time of it than those who entered George's world the other way around. Like you, this club has made me a much better reader. Whether or not it is also helping me to be a better writer--that is yet to be determined!
My route, too, was Lincoln then Swim in the Pond then others.
I did love Lincoln, but I didn't have a handle on why... until thinking about this post (which I am coming to late after the New Year break).
I think it was NOT the weirdness and NOT even in spite of the weirdness that I heard most in the story of Lincoln.
To me what carried real heft... there was this feeling that the characters were all in a moment of breaking out of a facade, role, or bravado that they had not even quite realised they'd fallen in to. I find that incredibly moving, this disintegration from performative and/or subconscious self-deception into a more honest and therefore humble state.
I recognised this first, reading Dickens... no spoilers but one of his longer books, a really quite pompous and unsympathetic character has his world fall apart, and he responds much to the readers' surprise and against all social expectations out of genuine and generous love, having all his pomposity and self-perception stripped away, and inside there is humility and humanity after all. I've made it sound much more simple than it is in the novel, and it comes as much more of a subtle and unexpected minor scene, but it is there and it again moved me deeply.
I do see a difference Mary, in George writing with teaching thoughts in mind and in George writing with thoughts of fresh story creating in mind. No big point and in every other way, so far as I can tell, I'm with you in the points you make in this comment.
His stories (and I have read far less than I ex[ected to by now, no problem rather a store of joys to come) embody his principles and his principles are advanced through his writing new stories. Like your take on the word 'joy' his process is an always 'active' creative endeavour.
He's not a magician possessive and secretive about his ways and means but a wordsmith who invites all in to take a look around and to takeaway and try anything and to be open to the possibility of surprising ourselves with unexpected joys.
A simple, recent example of what I am trying to say is my responding querulously, a little ways up this 'Top First' thread (as it stands as I type) to Tasha writing 'totally agree'. What an enlightening answer she kindly posted back, from reading which I've learned a lot (with plenty left to reflect further on and learn more from).
It has as you say Mary been an outstanding year, this past year in Story Club.
Oh, i agree completely, Rob. When George writes about story creation, his words, thoughts, sentence structure, etc, all come from a part of his brain that is in teaching mode. When he writes fiction, he goes to another place completely. And so the voice/style/purpose is different. We all do this--think of a love letter vs a letter to the editor.
Great getting to know you here, Rob! You are the club prodder--always asking us to go deeper and to explain ourselves. It's been a great year!
Thanks Mary for another thoughtful and insightful analysis. Since I’m in the camp of thinking there is indeed a meaningful difference between George’s teaching and his writing, I’d just like to say that it seems totally fine, and actually more intriguing than consistency. I don’t have to love it all for it to be valuable. The whole ‘Artist vs the Art’ tension has driven productive debate for ages. Does a nice artist need to paint happy pictures or a depressed one dark scary pictures? Not at all. Things can be complimentary in contrast to one other. The tension is compelling. Fire comes from friction. With that said, I want to also note that I am moved by your description of George’s work as feeling consistent to you due to, “highly moral stories with moral quandaries for very human characters--no matter where they are placed in time/space. And what I see are endings that, for the most part, celebrate humanity and the decisions we humans must make on a daily basis. Will we be good people? or will we turn away from the good?” I think you nailed it and described the place where George’s heart and compassion radiate, regardless of zany (freakified?) characters and circumstances that for me are sometimes distracting. Bravo.
Thank you, Kurt. I should say that if I had not already immersed myself in George's work, and if you were then to put one of George's stories in front of me along with a chapter from Swim and ask: were these written by the same person?, I probably would have said, beats me! They are two completely different voices--the teaching and the creator of fiction. When I say that there is no difference, what I mean is that the teachings are reflected in his writing--the lessons of "what is a story" can all be found in his work. When you mention "distracting," I think I know what you mean. At times, i have started to read one of George's stories and found myself sighing--a sigh that means, oh, boy, here we go, I'm gonna have to do a little work to figure out where I am in this story and what's going on. And I don't always want to read a story like that. So i understand when people here speak their truth about not being able to connect to his fiction. I do. Happy Holidays, whatever you celebrate!
Thanks Mary. Hey, since we’re a group of people who think hard about words, I want to float a question: what do think about that phrase, “speak their truth”? It has moved into the “avoid this term” column for me. From my perspective It too often legitimizes a lack of rigor or willingness to doubt. It shuts down discourse. Someone believes something just because they do, and therefore it is not legitimate to question or analyze. Conversation over. Agree to disagree. I’m pretty sure the history of “truth” is that it benefits from exploration rather than blind acceptance. Our understanding of it improves with challenges. I’m not (OMG definitely not) trying to bring politics into this forum. That’s a smell we don’t need here. I’m talking instead about the respectful give and take of ideas. Artistic Critique. Story Club is a remarkable forum for this kind of exploration and growth. I like to think we’re all pretty grown up and can handle it.
Written quickly. Excuse anything that is poorly worded, please:
"Speak their truth" shouldn't really be controversial, but I know that some phrases can be troublesome at times. In this context (here in SC), I was referring to those who had the courage to "speak their truth" when it comes to not clicking with George's stories. I mean, this is George's sub stack! The questioner had to strike just the right balance between explaining themselves (their truth) and not offending George. In my post, I was saying I understand that some people do not connect to his fiction--and that when they own up to that disconnection (which is personal to each individual), they are speaking their individual truth. I mean, you can't really argue with anyone's opinion, right? Now if someone says that their truth is the only correct way to think--well that's simply an incorrect statement. No one knows Truth with a capital T. In our specific case here, in Story Club, we often (for the most part) agree to disagree when it comes to our feelings about something.
Anyway, you've asked me what I think about that particular phrase, and i hope i've answered you well enough. I don't believe I've ever actually used the phrase before now. But each person has a right to their truth, and to speak what they think/feel, no? And when someone does "speak their truth," that doesn't necessarily mean "end of conversation." There's a world of discussion that can happen after that--a meeting of minds. I think that's what happens here all of the time. Someone will speak their truth as they see it and then a discussion begins with others weighing in and making points and counterpoints. Context is what's important. And, of course, agreeing that one person's truth is simply that--one person's truth.
Hi Mary. I think I basically agree with everything you said, and, as usual you are so generous in your responses. I have two comments. One is that I thought the office hours question was asked in a sort of deferential, student to teacher manner. It did not strike me as being about anyone’s truth or anything rigid. It was about the contrast in styles and the student asked the teacher to elaborate, which George did, in his usual compassionate, non-defensive way, which is part of why we all love him. The second thing is that in the world of words I think Truth implies certainty and a somewhat scientific, factual accuracy. I maintain that people are confusing this with faith, opinion and belief, which are valid and worthy but not scientific. Truth is subject to scientific method - questioning, challenging, tempering by fire. My complaint is only that when people say something is ‘their truth’, that interrogation is usually shut down. I think that lowers the bar and is an unfortunate trend in the world lately. However, in this wonderful inquisitive environment of Story Club, when we are at our best, we politely interrogate and we exercise curiosity more than certainty.
Completely agree with you. (But I will reiterate that I think when the questioner asserted their own disconnect with George's stories, they were speaking their own truth. This reminds me of the questioner of not too long ago who found many modern short stories sad--and how others here tried to argue that the stories were, in fact, NOT sad. My feeling, all along, was that the stories were sad to that person, and there could be no argument on that. The sadness of stories was that person's individual "truth.") Hope you're having a wonderful morning! Time for pancakes around here!
In one example he is using the tools of writing and creating his own stories, in another he he is teaching us how to use the tools he has learned and inviting us to try and use them in our own unique and creative ways^^ There are lessons in his art and art in his teachings.
One disconnect I’ve noticed between the Substack and your work is that the stories we discuss here seem very different from the stories you write. Regardless of how one may feel about your stories, we can all agree they don’t sound like Chekhov’s. Maybe we could spend some time on more unorthodox stories, to show that the principles you discuss can apply to a wide range of styles. Some Barthelme maybe?
Hi Bob, Michael and Tasha ... I seem to be at a loss in understanding each of you:
Bob: 'Regardless of how one may feel about your stories, we can all agree they don’t sound like Chekhov’s.' A baseless assertion? Does Beethoven sound like Bob Dylan? No, but they certainly do bend their understanding of the fundamentals of music making to their their creative ends. The music they make is different, distinctive and demonstrative of diversity but not divergent from what you, Bob, reference as 'the principles'.
Michael: 🔥🔥🔥 I'm not sure what you've flamed up the barbecue to do, agree or denur from Bob's point(s) of view?
Tasha: 'totally agree! OK in what way(s)?
I, personally, struggle to see 'My First Goose' and it's author Isaac Babel as exemplars of orthodox storytelling. Bob seems to and, it strikes me from reading your comments that so do you Michael and Tasha. Like wise Tillie Olsen? Lu Hsun? Katherine Mansfield? Ernest Hemingway? Zora Neal Thurston? Manuel Munoz?
What I see, better for the way that George has shown us (as I see it) in what he's been doing, post after post, week in week out, is the route of the road we're travelling towards being able to be the 'Anyone' who 'Can Do It', that aim to write well because we are, steadily, better grasping what writing well actually means and requires.
So, to each and all three of you, please tell me what's orthodox about any of the stories we've encountered in Story Club?
I simply meant that what I have loved about George's writing has always been a kind of fresh compassionate whimsy, a shooting-from-the-hipness, something akin to Kurt Vonnegut or as idiosyncratic as Miranda July, as strange as Barthelme. Chekhov is a master, as many of the russians are, and I'm happy to study those pieces. But in tone, in subject matter, in diction, in many other things that make literature exciting, they are far removed from current day, from how I write, and from the diversity of voices/cultures that I love, so in my heart, I'm not nearly as excited about those stories as I am about George's and the other authors I mentioned above.
Of course, this does not mean I don't want to learn from those stories - I certainly do! Any formative study should probably start there. I say this as a classically trained pianist, who voraciously ate my way out of the classics to became a punky, anarchistic, world-touring music producer and rap artist. So, I have complete respect for where we must begin and what it can teach us... I just get extra excited about where we might go from there.
My "totally agree" was just in solidarity with the OP that I'm excited to learn what George has to say about the more experimental, whimsical, speculative or weird stories as well.
Hope that clarifies.
*Edit: I also wanted to point out that I use the word "classic" instead of orthodox as the OP did, because it aims a little closer to what I mean: widely read, widely studied, widely anthologized, and usually (but not always, and certainly not here in Story Club, on George's very mindful and progressive watch) white, cishet and/or upper-middle class.
Love all your sensibilities expressed here, Tasha. Hope to hear your music sometime! I love everything from Bach to rock, jazz, rap and all things I haven’t heard enough of yet, from the music of India to Afrobeat(s) and beyond. Isn’t it great to be able to appreciate Chekhov, Shakespeare, Vonnegut, Raven Leilani, Bryan Washington, everyone?
I'm blown away by the honesty of both the writer of the question and the answer. I like the tone of both, the question clear without being uncomfortable, the answer is so straightforward and lacking ego. Anyway, I loved Lincoln in the Bardo and it's what brought me here––the book totally took me away to another realm. I'd heard that there will be a movie made, and I have the strangest thing on my mind. If the book is made into a film, what will they do about the ghost with the erection? I hope they find a way to keep it in. That was such a freak fest of an idea for what was going on with that ghost.
One of the benefits of living in DC is that after reading L in the B I could go down to the graveyard in Georgetown and visit the actual crypt at the center of the novel. Chills and thrills.
I didn’t realize how Lincoln’s son died before reading the book, it’s heartbreaking. I’d love to see the actual place--so cool! I’ll do that next time I’m there.
If you ever visit get in touch - I’ll take you there. As weird as this town gets in the present tense it’s a magical place in its contact points with the past.
I visited once, back in 1998. We were on a three week fly drive trip. Flew with British Airways, into Charlotte NC, last stop and out through a two night stopover in Washington. Stayed at a place in Georgetown, walked down to the Potomac, past The Watergate and came, arriving on the left of the immensity of Lincoln's Memorialised Left Hand Side into to that vast open air American Mausoleum that stretches ready to record endless American Dead.
It was in the wake of the Death of Princess Diana, first day in a while,according to Cabbie, that Yellow Taxis had been able go for sheer weight of floral tributes spread like sad confetti on the green space adjacent to The British Embassy past the Embassies back up to Georgetown.
If there should be a next time I will be likely to take you up on your offer, to Sea, and get in touch to talk a walk in and about The Bardo, in which time spent by Lincoln is recently re-immortalised by George's novel novel writing but better yet would be the prospect of your good company.
Wouldn't that be fun? It cheers me just to think about a SC meet up. I've been to DC only a few times, but had a great time. So much to do. Have you ever heard of a "Deadhead"? It was a group of people that followed The Grateful Dead around. I know someone who spent much of her youth doing just that. We'll have to think of a name for Story Clubbers who follow Mr. Saunders around.
Spiderhead? Writerheads? 😏. Sea - a few of us met up in Seattle this past fall. Let’s plan some regular get togethers. Maybe every quarter. If people are coming from far away - then maybe twice a year. I’m willing to organize!
Did you find the tone of the questioner’s writing almost Saunders-esque? It was both sharp and a bit folksy (maybe it was that “I was, well, not too into it” line?). At first I felt like I was reading Saunders writing about his own writing in character! But yes I also really appreciate the honesty and warmth of both.
"One ghost, the formerly middle-aged Hans Vollman, wanders around the bardo naked and tumescent because he died before consummating his marriage to his young second wife." The word "tumescent" might be better.
I will just say that I instantly forgave you everything I didn’t “get” about your writing when I hit one line in Swim in a Pond in the Rain (which I truly loved). You said something to the effect of “if you don’t agree with what I am saying, that’s your own artistic will asserting itself,” and that was to be encouraged. I love your teaching, your attitude, your kindness…and if I don’t love every story you ever write, well, much as I adore Dickens, I absolutely cannot get through Christmas Carol. And that’s okay! (I gag on almost all of Hemingway, but I will happily pay attention to what you might say about him.) As they say in AA… take what you need and leave the rest. It’ll still be there if you find you wanted it after all. Happy holidays to you and all the Story Clubbers!
It’s a huge universe and we are different creatures as we pass through each part of it. Love the thought of using what makes sense today and either flushing the rest, or recycling it, to see if it makes sense at another time. I think there is much to learn even from work that doesn’t thrill us. I read a story last night about a marriage going to pieces and I don’t like it and it’s quite disturbing but it won’t let me not think about it! Learning something about life and writing, in spite of my misgivings…
"I gag on almost all of Hemingway, but I will happily pay attention to what you might say about him"
Don't follow Julie: Ernest makes me gag, vomit, throw-up but George on Ernest I lap-up, value and go 'great point, ra, ra, ra' over?
I don't adore Dickens, and have only dipped into his canon. Like you I've never got from start to finish of Christmas Carol, or even even successfully tunnelled out from the middle of Christmas Present to reach the outer limits of the Beginning of Christmas Past or the Fade Out of Christmas Future. Here's the thing: next time, probably, hopefully, on a warm decking in Brittany in midsummer 2023 I click open Christmas Carol I know I;m going to get the trip, first to last page, because what George has offered, in writing in general as well as on this particular novella by a genius wordsmith, has enlightened me about and switched me on the merits of Charles Dickens: he was great exponent of the principles which underpin great story making and conveying to readers and audiences.
I never could read Hemingway either. Phew! I thought I was alone. However through this class I understand it better. Going to have another look someday.
Very well put, Julie. Can't get through Xmas Carol either, and got more from George's leading us through the Hemingway, who I can't stand either (annoying as the macho crap is, it's the banal sentences that I find irredeemable) than I ever did on my own.
I just wanted to say that I am an English teacher, have been for 38 years, and that this year for the first seven or so weeks of school I used your wonderful book, A Swim in a Pond in the Rain. My students had never read anything like that before, and I must say, neither did I, since I believe that book to be something of an anomaly. Your warmth, your insight, your passion, your humor, all entranced them, as it did me, and they learned more about literature and writing than any of my students have ever learned (although I have tried) throughout all my years of teaching. Every day for those seven weeks, we sat in a circle and discussed your words, the words of those Russian authors, and what it means to be human through those filters. I watched them transform from adolescents to students of life. Because of your writing, we have become a true community of learners, where the text has become the teacher, and I, I am just another voice, joining with theirs, attempting to come to understanding, as I am in my life outside of school, and I simply can't thank you enough.
Yay, Jon! Let's hear it for the English teachers of this world! I'm guessing you've made a huge difference in the lives of so many of your students over the last 38 years. Great that you have now introduced them to George's book--a twofer! You and George!
Just to say I came to your work first and then was delighted to find you offered advice about writing. I used Lincoln in the Bardo as one of my texts in an essay on form in my MA in Creative Writing (along with Machado’s In the Dream House) - got my highest mark for it so thank you for that too.
What resonates with me most is your advice to find your own shit-hill to climb. I actively want to see the world slantwise for myself and am in awe of writing that shows me the world reflected back in a new way that lets me see it from a fresh perspective. Writing isn’t real life, so I don’t need it to pretend to replicate it and I like embracing the artifice - as in theatre, it adds a dimension to the experience.
I’ve actually come to enjoy Chekov et al more from Story Club - perhaps the other way round to the original poster.
Happy Christmas and New Year and look forward to reading more in 2023.
I’m wondering now if ‘artifice’ is the right word. But playing with form or using things like ghosts or zombies or theme parks with living exhibits makes it possible to show the nub of what it is to be human in a way that’s hard to articulate directly. And it’s often just a lot funnier and more engaging.
I really need to incorporate this into my life: “A story doesn’t have to do everything; it just has to do something.” And I mean in my entire life, not just stories. Probably the worst thing for art is wanting to please everyone. It just can't be done, and it makes you clam up and not create art!
Thank you! My need or desire to please everyone has been crippling. (Can’t even please all my own selves most days…) Man, some of these faulty mind programs are not so easy to obliterate!
It took getting cancer to break this in me. Finally I was like, I’m in too much pain and on too many pain meds to worry about pleasing anyone. It was pretty freeing, actually. Now that I’m doing pretty well, again, I have to watch out that I don’t get bogged down by my ego again. Needing to be liked.
When we are doing well we get bogged down worrying what others think; when we’re not, we might break free. The Universe must be in love with irony!
I’m glad you’re doing well, and hopeful that you can stay above the egoistic fray. I should reimagine myself stuck in the snowy woods in Olympic National Park back in May of 2012. There was no thought of pleasing anyone, only the thought of, can I make it through the next ten feet of this snowfield without falling and sliding at 150 mph into the boulders below? Strangely enough, Lanie, that was also liberating, to the degree that when the choppers finally found me I was like, oh no, will I go right back to being the person I was before this? (Yes and no.)
(Seems like people like us more when we are authentic, anyway. If they don’t, it’s their loss.)
That’s a funny thing, Lanie. One would think, since it was such an intense experience, it would be easy to write about. So far, however, my attempts seem to have fallen flat. I have not found the proper approach, apparently. But I will try again and let you know!
No, I get it. Sometimes those experiences are the hardest to capture. Like moments that are “stranger than fiction.” Or trying to describe a spiritual or emotional experience or a beautiful sunset or vista without sounding too sentimental.
I haven't had to be rescued by helicopter---yikes!---but I've had a couple of near-misses (hit by lightning was one) and such as any life event has made it into my work it's never been by means literal or direct and this has never been by deliberate choice but seems more the pull & requirement of fiction or what the story demands. This may possibly be what Dickinson meant when she said, "tell it slant". Also, sometimes it's just enough that whatever it was happened & that it was survivable. Sometimes, a whew! is sufficient.
you've most likely written stories about being stuck somewhere or with a character wondering if they can go on. or about a character who, given an opportunity to change, does not. So maybe you have found the right approach already.
I am so glad I went back to this thread and read about your story. I actually love survival stories. It's one of the only way the chicken hearted like me can have a big adventure. I take that back, because I've had them too before I got older and a lot smarter. I call them "Live to Tell" stories. Write it up, please! Reimagine yourself, tell it slant if you must, but tell it!
So many of George's stories seem to be about a moment when people rise above ego. I have a terrible memory and don't have books to hand but The Falls springs to mind and the one about the suicidal man in the snow and the boy...and they both made me think of the snowy one in a swim in the pond master and man. If anyone has a better memory than me feel free to correct the titles :-)
The Tenth of December is the suicidal man story. You've got the other titles correct. (My memory absolutely sucks so i'm stupidly proud of myself for remembering this one. Last night, someone asked me who my representatives are, and even though I just voted for them a month ago, i had to tell her I no longer could pull up those names from the old memory bank.)
It's so hard to change, but at least we can try! I am also a very punctual person, and sometimes I try and make myself late, just a little, just ten minutes. And that's when I arrive on the dot, and not ten minutes early. : ) Baby steps...
Well now I need to add “A story doesn’t have to do everything; it just has to do something” to a sticky note right next to my other favorite sticky note which reads "Maybe don't get so butt hurt about feedback?"
I really appreciate your unapologetic you-ness. I discovered your work about a year ago and have greedily read about half of your published works at this point. You are one of those authors who keeps me chugging along even through my darkest of days. You have no idea what your stories have done for me but I hope to one day touch someone as deeply with my writing as you have with yours.
I came to GS’s work through a passing comment in an interview with the late, great DF Wallace who listed GS as one of the best writers going. And he was a hard nut to please.
I love DF Wallace more than words can express. His work, however humorous, has this subtle underlying sadness to it that makes me feel more deeply understood than most people can. There is something so magical about a writer that can reach through decades and make you feel a little less alone. GS's work has occasionally done that for me though with GS it's less of an emotional understanding and more of a shared whacky worldview/humor that almost gives me permission to just take everything a little less seriously. And I definitely meed that :)
Indeed DFW is a one of a kind and one of my very favorites - although he’s a maximalist whereas GS, like many of his heroes, is a taker outer. It’s interesting that you pick up on the sadness in his work. That was definitely intentional. In fact he said of Infinite Jest that he set out to write a novel about sadness - as The Pale King is, from one perspective, a novel about boredom. Sadness and boredom amongst plenty was a major concern of his and a particularly American isssue.
Yes and the juxtaposition between DFW and GS is what makes my heart sing. Such different approaches to storytelling, such different experiences. So much to learn from from each <3
Deep bow to you, George. I have been a Zen student for over 10 years but I also have a bunch of degrees and a very busy mundane world job. The fact that you can run a letter from someone who doesn't love and worship every single thing you do, and deal with it with humility and honesty, is what we need to see in writing and in life today. Thank you for your deep practice.
I teach medical humanities to medical students. During the fall, the entire course is designed to put the students in the heads of people who aren’t like them, but who might be like patients they will see one day. One of the ways I’ve done that is with George’s short stories. I use “Puppy” from Tenth of December, to get them to talk about socioeconomic class bias. They don’t know that’s what they’re doing, at least not until we’ll into the discussion, but that’s what they’re doing. In that story, George puts us brilliantly into the minds of two mothers who are doing what they believe is best to love their children. The story is whacky. The voice of the first mother is incredibly well written. And I’m the second mother, students are sort of forced by their consciences to empathize with a “bad” person/mother. And every single year there are students who adore the session and others who think I’ve, at the very least, lost my mind, and at the worst they think I should be fired. The quote below is from a student who grew up and lives in a great deal of cultural advantage. And in his late twenties/early thirties, George’s fiction makes it not-too-late to make him an empathetic medical provider one day. It might not be for everyone, but it certainly DOES something.
Quote from student’s email to me after this year’s session...
“Prof S.
I wish I could have found the words to contribute to the class discussion today. To be honest, the content and message from your guided discussion rocked me. I have never taken the time to check my biases, especially as they pertain to wealth and class (I learned today that I have a bunch). Today was the first time I have ever done this, and I am deeply grateful for the instruction that you have provided. It quite literally left me speechless as I was uncovering all of the biases that I was too blind to witness. You have not force-fed your ideas of what is right but rather have given me a platform to investigate myself as a future PA, friend and trustee. To say that I have deeply enjoyed these topics would be an understatement, and I applaud the effort that you put into your instruction.”
I am just now reading "The Last Taxi Driver" by Lee Durkee (recommended by GS) and as a One Health-educator and practitioner (now retired from academia), I think it's also a must-read for prospective health professionals. I'm delighted to hear about your work, Ethan, and your successful connection with the students. Thanks for carrying on that essential work!
Wow! It must have been so gratifying to read this, Ethan. And how incredibly cool that you are able to share that anecdote here--I hope George has seen this too.
THANK YOU for guiding some of our future doctors down a path of empathy.
That is fantastic, Ethan. I am put in mind of the opening lines of The Great Gatsby. So often we have no idea of our advantages, or we have been trained to not see them. Great work; and, thank you!
I’ve fallen into a dream job. It’s pretty amazing to watch these folks “get it”, and know they’re bringing that to the bedside of all of us and our loved ones.
Super late response here. Just a hello from another health humanities person. I teach undergrads in health sciences using the same approach. It's so powerful and your comment captures it very well. Tenth of December is another great teaching tool. Next week, we dive into War Dances by Sherman Alexie to get at some of the issues you've raised.
If it isn't too excruciating I would love to hear you talk about one of your stories in here as you suggest. Maybe breaking it into sections.
I think one of the things I've learned already from the freakification exercise is how much I was holding back trying to please everyone or get it 'right'. Liberated like a speaker with a knowledge module added and the dial accidentally knocked to max haha
“...they come into a story of mine, are immediately confused about what is happening...”
I have to admit, that is one of the best descriptions of a George Saunders story that I have ever read. It’s completely true... and one of the things that makes me so excited when I read the work! I love that sensation of wondering what these weird words mean, what is doing on, who these people are, and for gods sake why are they in this fucked up situation?? I know that if I stick it out *something* will be made clear to me.
I can see how it’s not for all readers, though. And I can see how I might not always be in the mood for that type of experience.
I disagree with the idea that the writing and teaching are at odds with each other, though. I can’t really see it and am interested in hearing more about that perspective if anyone wants to share.
I’m a puzzle doer (words, jigsaw, logic) so dropping into a Saunders story and having to figure out the language and what’s going on - it’s totally my jam. Just love it!
Also, I think at this point I trust George to take me somewhere in the story. When I started Liberation Day I had that familiar “WTF is going on” sensation, and honestly I wasn’t in the mood at the time. But since I have been in that place with other stories George has written I was willing to stick it out.
Lee, me too. I just finished reading Liberation Day and half the fun was starting with "what the f___ is going on here?" and then reading on to figure it out. And I have more fun imagining George's inspiration for the story itself.
They don’t seem contradictory to me but I can appreciate that they might appear that way to others. Our differences in brain hardware and mind software play a gigantic role here. Maybe George has simply taken the rules of the writing road laid down by others and amped them into new directions and dimensions?
Both Q & A here have my heart. And for this I not only sincerely thank you both--that question, posed better than I ever could, has been on my mind---but thank you also for pointing out, each in your own articulate way, the vital distinction between love & appreciation.
Holy cannolis. I have heard from people who "don't get it" when it comes to George's stories. I was in an MFA program and we were asked to bring in our favorite short story and mine was Tenth of December. Next thing I knew (hoo boy) there was a vociferous discussion between the lovers and the haters. So it's good for George to say that writing is "creating energy" because the "meh" response would be the worst, wouldn't it? I immediately thought that my MFA workshops with these folx would uncover the haters as talentless cretins but was wrong and happily so. It's like people who like cilantro. They're not wrong, are they? I read somewhere there's a biological marker for people who think cilantro tastes like soap. Me, I fucking LOVE cilantro but then there you go.
It’s still hard for my brain to wrap around hating the Tenth of December. I feel like that is one of the more accessible of George’s stories. I can’t imagine what they (those talentless cretins!) would think of Escape from Spiderhead!
Escape from Spiderhead was the first Saunder’s story I read after introduction to it in a class. Loved it and kept going back to it. It seems to me that part of the momentum has a lot to do with omission. You add so much of your own fantasy visuals of the background setting. I wonder if a group of people sat in a room and described what the place looked like every person’s setting would be different.
I read the Harper’s Magazine anecdote out loud to my husband because it cracked me up so much.
I think I mentioned here before Murikami’s story in First Person Singular where he talks about how his writing isn’t what everyone is looking for. I still think about that section of that story all the time. How it is a pleasure for both the person offering and the person receiving to have found each other.
I think it is easy to use our tastes as a sort of snobbery. I do this all the time. Someone mentioned recently that they thought a movie that I loved was overrated by critics. In my head, I was like, “well, you just don’t get it. You’re too daft.” I don’t admire this about myself. The other, more gracious part of me gets that it’s okay to have different tastes and that not all art has to speak to all audiences in the same way. Things would get pretty boring if that was the case.
Anyway, I love the honesty in this question and in the response. And it never once crossed my mind that the asker was daft because they didn’t get into George’s work. Just in case what I said before was taken as some hint that I felt that way. I absolutely don’t.
Life is way too short to spend time trying to force yourself to like something. I may never read Proust and I’m okay with that. I did, however read three books in the Confessions of a Shopaholic series.
Happy Holidays to all of you brilliant, lovely people!!
I do this too: the snobby first reaction and the calmer, more compassionate thinking afterward. The film I get the most flack for loving is Terrence Malick's "The Tree of Life." Very esoteric. Very divisive. But, like you, I also love a good-hearted entertainer like "While You Were Sleeping." One reason I admire George's writing, though, it he often does a good job of bridging the "entertainment" aspect of fiction with the "thoughtful contemplation" element.
Being part of Story Club has also opened me up to reading more short fiction, and I find it much more freeing to take or leave a story in the genre. Did I love each story in Tenth of December equally? Of course not! Reading it felt like listening to an album front to back. Even my all-time favourite, desert island albums have their highlights.
I’ve been contemplating this very question and writing about your work on my Medium account, George. For me, I see an application of your theories espoused in “A Swim in a Pond in the Rain” in your stories. It’s like looking behind the curtain and seeing the machinery that makes it run. (Soon I will apply my own “badly imitated ‘Story Club George voice” to a reading of “The Mom of Bold Action” to show how your theories work for my (rather small) Medium or substack audience.)
And yet, as with many analytical endeavors, it’s not reductive with your stories. That is, there is something more than mere machinery. Therein lies the magic of greatness. The ineffable thing that’s difficult to pinpoint.
I, too, feel like a fan, a groupie, fan-fanning about Story Club everywhere I go. This past year, I’ve collected and read all your published books. I’m on the second read through.
All I can say is Thank you for Story Club! It has given me hope for a better life, hope for all those who love story and literature and art, and a glimpse at greatness in action, as well as some good friends.
I tell my gf often when I’m reading one of your stories - “this is so dark!” And yet. And yet. This isn’t McCarthy’s “The Road.” Contained within your stories are seeds of hope and an empathetic humanity.
Like Eliot, I see you pointing the way out of the waste land. Thank you. And happy holidays everyone.
I'm raising my hand over here: can I join you guys' group? There don't seem to be any other islanders in SC and I'm in the PNW at least once a year . . . (still kicking myself for not reaching out to members when I was in Seattle last August).
Maybe the PNW and Hawaii are each other’s back yard? After all, both were built by the fire and lava of stupendous volcanoes, and plate tectonic pressure…
Yes! I was going to write that! Everyone should take a midwinter break in Hawaii! But then I thought that might sound cruel, considering the winter storm that's hitting most places right now :/
For me it would probably have to be on a Wednesday or Thursday afternoon / evening. I was lucky enough to get to spend some time with Lee and Stacya (Sea Shepard) on 9/23/22. Upcoming dates I will definitely be in Seattle are: January 11, February 22, and April 5th!
I hope the stars align and we can make it happen. It’s hard for me to get away from Portland since I have two school-age kids and a husband with an unpredictable schedule, but I’ll keep my fingers crossed it all works out.
We just need to find out who is where and schedule a time. I'd be happy to be a point of contact and gather info and make arrangements. I can be reached at lee_hornbrook@yahoo.com Send an email. Let me know what area you are in, and when you can usually meet, and we'll get this started!
I feel like it might have to be more a virtual "coffee" for most of us. I live in southeast Alberta. Probably not close enough to the rest of you. Though, I visit family in Vancouver semi-regularly so… maybe?
We can totally do a hybrid in-person meet-up + virtual. And then if/when you get to Vancouver, maybe you can get here in person. Speaking of which, my gf and I are new to PNW, and we're dying to go to Vancouver and need guidance - places to stay, things to see and do. So hit me up in email and let's chat!
Perhaps I'm alone here, but i do not see a difference between George's teaching and his writing. Certainly, some of his stories go to a dark place, but that dark place is recognizable to me--places that reflect the darkness I see in the world today. To me, when i reflect on George's stories, what I think of are highly moral stories with moral quandaries for very human characters--no matter where they are placed in time/space. And what I see are endings that, for the most part, celebrate humanity and the decisions we humans must make on a daily basis. Will we be good people? or will we turn away from the good? (I'm sure there are stories that do not fit my description, but this is how I see George's stories--my takeaway. And so I am happy with my interpretation.)
As far as George's teachings here in Story Club and in his book on writing, what he offers us here is in full display in his fiction. His stories all escalate, they have causation, they build curiosity in the reader, they generate a reaction, and so on and so forth. Everything George has taught us about stories can be found in his stories. I see a lot of people asking George here to analyze one of his own stories and that would be fantastic. But i think we can do a lot of that on our own. Remember pulses? You can read one of George's stories and divide it into pulses, and then see how each pulse causes the next one. You can see where his characters are pushed forward, and you can find the moment that his characters must make a decision that defines them. You can see how active his voice is and how active his characters are. And on and on. It's all there, on the page. (But yes, let's do it together, with George leading us. That would be super.)
On another note, I want to thank everyone here in Story Club for the past year of connection, conversation, and friendship. This has been an experience like no other. The meeting of minds here has been so beautiful. Thank you to those of you who have gone deep with me here, and who have allowed me to go on and on and on. I've learned so much from all of you, and from George. Here's to a happy new year for all of us. This substack is my definition of joy--which to me is an active word, something that happens in the present moment, and which is most often found in the company of others, in shared experiences. Here's to many, many more months of shared thoughts and dreams, and lots of writing. xoxox
A privilege, for sure, to get to know you and our Story Club community. It’s Christmas every Sunday and Thursday, all year long!
I love how you parse George’s fiction against the “tenets” of his teaching — and I agree — it’s a one to one match. He practices what he preaches. And I love how you lay out his lessons! (I’d almost forgotten “pulses.” )
I think the questioner was perplexed about the difference in style of each— George’s teaching is no less rigorous than his fiction writing, but more colloquial and perhaps, more user friendly— the worlds crafted in his stories often require a suspension of the familiar, even some mind-muscle to enter. There’s an austerity— a sense of every word if not sentence measured against necessity. The combination of strangeness with austerity— well it can be foreboding — I’ve given his fiction to friends who are avid readers and not all of them take to it like I do. His work has a combination of qualities I especially like: cold eye/warm heart.
I agree--the gifts just keep coming, twice a week! George's posts are like short sermons, to be savored and pondered. In many ways, story club is less about how to write and more about how to live. Or perhaps the two are equal.
I actually loved that the questioner wrote this regarding reading George's works: "I am shocked by how little I connect with the stories." I mean, on some level, I think that statement is just fantastic and to be celebrated. What a validation of the mystery of fiction! What a world we live in where we all have our own minds, opinions, ideas, dreams, realities....! To not connect with George's stories--well, that is perfectly valid. And it tells the questioner so much about themselves--about their likes and dislikes, about their tolerance or lack of same for strangeness, about their notions of what a (good) story is, and about the fact that we are all in our own skin bags, held up by our bones, and seeing the world through the limited perceptions of our brains. It's amazing to be alive! Maybe at some other point in life, that questioner will try George's stories again and they will click. Human and story will connect. But if not--oh, well. That's perfectly okay, too. In the meantime, what a great takeaway--that George contains multitudes, as do we all.
"Cold eye/warm heart"! --perfect!
Thank you, Mary. Why do I feel that Story Time Club (and this entire planet) would be so much less marvelous without your love, insights and perspectives? I was already having a mind-opening day and now it’s soul-opening and heart-opening too. I am so grateful for every thought and word you have shared over the past year. What a lift!!
I should also thank everyone else on here. I believe you led the way, Mary, in encouraging all of us to just throw our whole selves into these comments sections. And we’ve taken you up on it! Everyone here just blows me away. A recent example: the way Anika wrote about her experience with Midnight’s Children a few days ago really got me. I had tried to read it ten or fifteen years ago and it wasn’t working. But I went to the Olympia BN last night to do a little Christmas shopping and bought myself a few presents also: Liberation Day, My Year Of Rest and Relaxation, a book of stories by Cynthia Ozick, Mercury Pictures Presents, and two Rushdie novels. MC looks wonderful from word one. So what changed? All of us here, turning one another on to stories, novels, theory, films, thoughts, emotions, concepts, exercises, ideas, and humor. I can’t thank you all enough! Looking forward to more life, words, love and laughter!
David, David, David--you are the true heart around here! Thank goodness for your lovely input, week after week!
Why you like to make me blush? Love you so damn much!
xoxoxoxooxoxoxoxo
I agree with you, Mary, but also can see how it could feel like a "disconnect" as well. Before Story Club, I had read (and loved) "Lincoln in the Bardo" and "A Swim in a Pond . . . ." I think because it had been a while since reading "Lincoln in the Bardo," the "voice" I associated with George was the voice of "A Swim in a Pond" and Story Club. And so, when I started reading the stories in "Tenth of December" a few months ago, I definitely had a few moments of, "whoa, this is not what I was expecting . . . " But I am totally with you that, while the voice/style/whatever of the short stories is different, it's not as if they exist on some plane that is alien to all that we have been talking about here at Story Club. (And I had such a delightful moment of connection between Story Club and the story "Liberation Day" when Jeremy laments "several bowling pins" left in the air due to interrpution of his performance/story.)
I do think some stories just speak to us. Like they are just in tune. And others require a little more work from us. Sometimes, with a Story Club story, on first read I am not sure I get why it is a "great" short story. But the discussions about how the stories work have been so wonderful, and have increased my appreciation for the stories I was initially skeptical about. Some of George's stories resonate with me right away . . . and with some, I have to push past a first reaction that this may not be "my kind of story." If I've learned anything in Story Club, it is that it can be really rewarding to open myself to stories that I don't fall in love with right away.
I joined Story Club to help me be a better writer. I think I'm a better writer than when I started. But what I do know for certain is that Story Club has helped me be a better reader. I'm not always able to read/comment right away, but I read every post and as many comments as I can manage, and I am tremendously grateful to George and to all the Story Clubbers who comment, submit questions, etc.
Hey Melissa. Thanks for commenting. I think because I read George's short stories first, and only then read Bardo, followed by Swim, that I perhaps had an easier time of it than those who entered George's world the other way around. Like you, this club has made me a much better reader. Whether or not it is also helping me to be a better writer--that is yet to be determined!
My route, too, was Lincoln then Swim in the Pond then others.
I did love Lincoln, but I didn't have a handle on why... until thinking about this post (which I am coming to late after the New Year break).
I think it was NOT the weirdness and NOT even in spite of the weirdness that I heard most in the story of Lincoln.
To me what carried real heft... there was this feeling that the characters were all in a moment of breaking out of a facade, role, or bravado that they had not even quite realised they'd fallen in to. I find that incredibly moving, this disintegration from performative and/or subconscious self-deception into a more honest and therefore humble state.
I recognised this first, reading Dickens... no spoilers but one of his longer books, a really quite pompous and unsympathetic character has his world fall apart, and he responds much to the readers' surprise and against all social expectations out of genuine and generous love, having all his pomposity and self-perception stripped away, and inside there is humility and humanity after all. I've made it sound much more simple than it is in the novel, and it comes as much more of a subtle and unexpected minor scene, but it is there and it again moved me deeply.
Anyway - thanks all.
I do see a difference Mary, in George writing with teaching thoughts in mind and in George writing with thoughts of fresh story creating in mind. No big point and in every other way, so far as I can tell, I'm with you in the points you make in this comment.
His stories (and I have read far less than I ex[ected to by now, no problem rather a store of joys to come) embody his principles and his principles are advanced through his writing new stories. Like your take on the word 'joy' his process is an always 'active' creative endeavour.
He's not a magician possessive and secretive about his ways and means but a wordsmith who invites all in to take a look around and to takeaway and try anything and to be open to the possibility of surprising ourselves with unexpected joys.
A simple, recent example of what I am trying to say is my responding querulously, a little ways up this 'Top First' thread (as it stands as I type) to Tasha writing 'totally agree'. What an enlightening answer she kindly posted back, from reading which I've learned a lot (with plenty left to reflect further on and learn more from).
It has as you say Mary been an outstanding year, this past year in Story Club.
Oh, i agree completely, Rob. When George writes about story creation, his words, thoughts, sentence structure, etc, all come from a part of his brain that is in teaching mode. When he writes fiction, he goes to another place completely. And so the voice/style/purpose is different. We all do this--think of a love letter vs a letter to the editor.
Great getting to know you here, Rob! You are the club prodder--always asking us to go deeper and to explain ourselves. It's been a great year!
Thanks Mary for another thoughtful and insightful analysis. Since I’m in the camp of thinking there is indeed a meaningful difference between George’s teaching and his writing, I’d just like to say that it seems totally fine, and actually more intriguing than consistency. I don’t have to love it all for it to be valuable. The whole ‘Artist vs the Art’ tension has driven productive debate for ages. Does a nice artist need to paint happy pictures or a depressed one dark scary pictures? Not at all. Things can be complimentary in contrast to one other. The tension is compelling. Fire comes from friction. With that said, I want to also note that I am moved by your description of George’s work as feeling consistent to you due to, “highly moral stories with moral quandaries for very human characters--no matter where they are placed in time/space. And what I see are endings that, for the most part, celebrate humanity and the decisions we humans must make on a daily basis. Will we be good people? or will we turn away from the good?” I think you nailed it and described the place where George’s heart and compassion radiate, regardless of zany (freakified?) characters and circumstances that for me are sometimes distracting. Bravo.
Thank you, Kurt. I should say that if I had not already immersed myself in George's work, and if you were then to put one of George's stories in front of me along with a chapter from Swim and ask: were these written by the same person?, I probably would have said, beats me! They are two completely different voices--the teaching and the creator of fiction. When I say that there is no difference, what I mean is that the teachings are reflected in his writing--the lessons of "what is a story" can all be found in his work. When you mention "distracting," I think I know what you mean. At times, i have started to read one of George's stories and found myself sighing--a sigh that means, oh, boy, here we go, I'm gonna have to do a little work to figure out where I am in this story and what's going on. And I don't always want to read a story like that. So i understand when people here speak their truth about not being able to connect to his fiction. I do. Happy Holidays, whatever you celebrate!
Thanks Mary. Hey, since we’re a group of people who think hard about words, I want to float a question: what do think about that phrase, “speak their truth”? It has moved into the “avoid this term” column for me. From my perspective It too often legitimizes a lack of rigor or willingness to doubt. It shuts down discourse. Someone believes something just because they do, and therefore it is not legitimate to question or analyze. Conversation over. Agree to disagree. I’m pretty sure the history of “truth” is that it benefits from exploration rather than blind acceptance. Our understanding of it improves with challenges. I’m not (OMG definitely not) trying to bring politics into this forum. That’s a smell we don’t need here. I’m talking instead about the respectful give and take of ideas. Artistic Critique. Story Club is a remarkable forum for this kind of exploration and growth. I like to think we’re all pretty grown up and can handle it.
Written quickly. Excuse anything that is poorly worded, please:
"Speak their truth" shouldn't really be controversial, but I know that some phrases can be troublesome at times. In this context (here in SC), I was referring to those who had the courage to "speak their truth" when it comes to not clicking with George's stories. I mean, this is George's sub stack! The questioner had to strike just the right balance between explaining themselves (their truth) and not offending George. In my post, I was saying I understand that some people do not connect to his fiction--and that when they own up to that disconnection (which is personal to each individual), they are speaking their individual truth. I mean, you can't really argue with anyone's opinion, right? Now if someone says that their truth is the only correct way to think--well that's simply an incorrect statement. No one knows Truth with a capital T. In our specific case here, in Story Club, we often (for the most part) agree to disagree when it comes to our feelings about something.
Anyway, you've asked me what I think about that particular phrase, and i hope i've answered you well enough. I don't believe I've ever actually used the phrase before now. But each person has a right to their truth, and to speak what they think/feel, no? And when someone does "speak their truth," that doesn't necessarily mean "end of conversation." There's a world of discussion that can happen after that--a meeting of minds. I think that's what happens here all of the time. Someone will speak their truth as they see it and then a discussion begins with others weighing in and making points and counterpoints. Context is what's important. And, of course, agreeing that one person's truth is simply that--one person's truth.
Hi Mary. I think I basically agree with everything you said, and, as usual you are so generous in your responses. I have two comments. One is that I thought the office hours question was asked in a sort of deferential, student to teacher manner. It did not strike me as being about anyone’s truth or anything rigid. It was about the contrast in styles and the student asked the teacher to elaborate, which George did, in his usual compassionate, non-defensive way, which is part of why we all love him. The second thing is that in the world of words I think Truth implies certainty and a somewhat scientific, factual accuracy. I maintain that people are confusing this with faith, opinion and belief, which are valid and worthy but not scientific. Truth is subject to scientific method - questioning, challenging, tempering by fire. My complaint is only that when people say something is ‘their truth’, that interrogation is usually shut down. I think that lowers the bar and is an unfortunate trend in the world lately. However, in this wonderful inquisitive environment of Story Club, when we are at our best, we politely interrogate and we exercise curiosity more than certainty.
Completely agree with you. (But I will reiterate that I think when the questioner asserted their own disconnect with George's stories, they were speaking their own truth. This reminds me of the questioner of not too long ago who found many modern short stories sad--and how others here tried to argue that the stories were, in fact, NOT sad. My feeling, all along, was that the stories were sad to that person, and there could be no argument on that. The sadness of stories was that person's individual "truth.") Hope you're having a wonderful morning! Time for pancakes around here!
In one example he is using the tools of writing and creating his own stories, in another he he is teaching us how to use the tools he has learned and inviting us to try and use them in our own unique and creative ways^^ There are lessons in his art and art in his teachings.
Not alone, Mary. I too don't see a difference : )
That's good to know, Amanda. Thank you!
One disconnect I’ve noticed between the Substack and your work is that the stories we discuss here seem very different from the stories you write. Regardless of how one may feel about your stories, we can all agree they don’t sound like Chekhov’s. Maybe we could spend some time on more unorthodox stories, to show that the principles you discuss can apply to a wide range of styles. Some Barthelme maybe?
totally agree!
Hi Bob, Michael and Tasha ... I seem to be at a loss in understanding each of you:
Bob: 'Regardless of how one may feel about your stories, we can all agree they don’t sound like Chekhov’s.' A baseless assertion? Does Beethoven sound like Bob Dylan? No, but they certainly do bend their understanding of the fundamentals of music making to their their creative ends. The music they make is different, distinctive and demonstrative of diversity but not divergent from what you, Bob, reference as 'the principles'.
Michael: 🔥🔥🔥 I'm not sure what you've flamed up the barbecue to do, agree or denur from Bob's point(s) of view?
Tasha: 'totally agree! OK in what way(s)?
I, personally, struggle to see 'My First Goose' and it's author Isaac Babel as exemplars of orthodox storytelling. Bob seems to and, it strikes me from reading your comments that so do you Michael and Tasha. Like wise Tillie Olsen? Lu Hsun? Katherine Mansfield? Ernest Hemingway? Zora Neal Thurston? Manuel Munoz?
What I see, better for the way that George has shown us (as I see it) in what he's been doing, post after post, week in week out, is the route of the road we're travelling towards being able to be the 'Anyone' who 'Can Do It', that aim to write well because we are, steadily, better grasping what writing well actually means and requires.
So, to each and all three of you, please tell me what's orthodox about any of the stories we've encountered in Story Club?
I simply meant that what I have loved about George's writing has always been a kind of fresh compassionate whimsy, a shooting-from-the-hipness, something akin to Kurt Vonnegut or as idiosyncratic as Miranda July, as strange as Barthelme. Chekhov is a master, as many of the russians are, and I'm happy to study those pieces. But in tone, in subject matter, in diction, in many other things that make literature exciting, they are far removed from current day, from how I write, and from the diversity of voices/cultures that I love, so in my heart, I'm not nearly as excited about those stories as I am about George's and the other authors I mentioned above.
Of course, this does not mean I don't want to learn from those stories - I certainly do! Any formative study should probably start there. I say this as a classically trained pianist, who voraciously ate my way out of the classics to became a punky, anarchistic, world-touring music producer and rap artist. So, I have complete respect for where we must begin and what it can teach us... I just get extra excited about where we might go from there.
My "totally agree" was just in solidarity with the OP that I'm excited to learn what George has to say about the more experimental, whimsical, speculative or weird stories as well.
Hope that clarifies.
*Edit: I also wanted to point out that I use the word "classic" instead of orthodox as the OP did, because it aims a little closer to what I mean: widely read, widely studied, widely anthologized, and usually (but not always, and certainly not here in Story Club, on George's very mindful and progressive watch) white, cishet and/or upper-middle class.
Love all your sensibilities expressed here, Tasha. Hope to hear your music sometime! I love everything from Bach to rock, jazz, rap and all things I haven’t heard enough of yet, from the music of India to Afrobeat(s) and beyond. Isn’t it great to be able to appreciate Chekhov, Shakespeare, Vonnegut, Raven Leilani, Bryan Washington, everyone?
So 👍, I so, totally, now, see and, totally, agree Tasha.
So thank you Tasha, for takin' time, time to unpack your
So thoughtful "totally agree", such a lot shown to lie behind
So few as two words, two Tasha words, "totally agree" I do see
So, well, "classic", so short, sharp, simply Tasha surgical, 'nuff said?
🔥🔥🔥
Love Murakami
I'm blown away by the honesty of both the writer of the question and the answer. I like the tone of both, the question clear without being uncomfortable, the answer is so straightforward and lacking ego. Anyway, I loved Lincoln in the Bardo and it's what brought me here––the book totally took me away to another realm. I'd heard that there will be a movie made, and I have the strangest thing on my mind. If the book is made into a film, what will they do about the ghost with the erection? I hope they find a way to keep it in. That was such a freak fest of an idea for what was going on with that ghost.
One of the benefits of living in DC is that after reading L in the B I could go down to the graveyard in Georgetown and visit the actual crypt at the center of the novel. Chills and thrills.
I didn’t realize how Lincoln’s son died before reading the book, it’s heartbreaking. I’d love to see the actual place--so cool! I’ll do that next time I’m there.
If you ever visit get in touch - I’ll take you there. As weird as this town gets in the present tense it’s a magical place in its contact points with the past.
And what of your town's future Stephen?
I visited once, back in 1998. We were on a three week fly drive trip. Flew with British Airways, into Charlotte NC, last stop and out through a two night stopover in Washington. Stayed at a place in Georgetown, walked down to the Potomac, past The Watergate and came, arriving on the left of the immensity of Lincoln's Memorialised Left Hand Side into to that vast open air American Mausoleum that stretches ready to record endless American Dead.
It was in the wake of the Death of Princess Diana, first day in a while,according to Cabbie, that Yellow Taxis had been able go for sheer weight of floral tributes spread like sad confetti on the green space adjacent to The British Embassy past the Embassies back up to Georgetown.
If there should be a next time I will be likely to take you up on your offer, to Sea, and get in touch to talk a walk in and about The Bardo, in which time spent by Lincoln is recently re-immortalised by George's novel novel writing but better yet would be the prospect of your good company.
Wouldn't that be fun? It cheers me just to think about a SC meet up. I've been to DC only a few times, but had a great time. So much to do. Have you ever heard of a "Deadhead"? It was a group of people that followed The Grateful Dead around. I know someone who spent much of her youth doing just that. We'll have to think of a name for Story Clubbers who follow Mr. Saunders around.
Spiderhead? Writerheads? 😏. Sea - a few of us met up in Seattle this past fall. Let’s plan some regular get togethers. Maybe every quarter. If people are coming from far away - then maybe twice a year. I’m willing to organize!
With an equally weird past?
I will do!
I'm in DC, too. I know the cemetery. And as you say, DC is both weird & magical.
You'll pick out our coffee shop!
Oh, the challenge!
Kramers? Books and coffee (and food)! I miss that place....
Did you find the tone of the questioner’s writing almost Saunders-esque? It was both sharp and a bit folksy (maybe it was that “I was, well, not too into it” line?). At first I felt like I was reading Saunders writing about his own writing in character! But yes I also really appreciate the honesty and warmth of both.
Yes! It's such a good tone. Perhaps we'll all begin to adopt it, or maybe we already have.
Sounds like one sexy-ass ghost there!
"One ghost, the formerly middle-aged Hans Vollman, wanders around the bardo naked and tumescent because he died before consummating his marriage to his young second wife." The word "tumescent" might be better.
Holding that energy for a long time…
Better tumescent than senescent; or maybe both at once?
Love it, Alfred-Patrick!!
I will just say that I instantly forgave you everything I didn’t “get” about your writing when I hit one line in Swim in a Pond in the Rain (which I truly loved). You said something to the effect of “if you don’t agree with what I am saying, that’s your own artistic will asserting itself,” and that was to be encouraged. I love your teaching, your attitude, your kindness…and if I don’t love every story you ever write, well, much as I adore Dickens, I absolutely cannot get through Christmas Carol. And that’s okay! (I gag on almost all of Hemingway, but I will happily pay attention to what you might say about him.) As they say in AA… take what you need and leave the rest. It’ll still be there if you find you wanted it after all. Happy holidays to you and all the Story Clubbers!
It’s a huge universe and we are different creatures as we pass through each part of it. Love the thought of using what makes sense today and either flushing the rest, or recycling it, to see if it makes sense at another time. I think there is much to learn even from work that doesn’t thrill us. I read a story last night about a marriage going to pieces and I don’t like it and it’s quite disturbing but it won’t let me not think about it! Learning something about life and writing, in spite of my misgivings…
"I gag on almost all of Hemingway, but I will happily pay attention to what you might say about him"
Don't follow Julie: Ernest makes me gag, vomit, throw-up but George on Ernest I lap-up, value and go 'great point, ra, ra, ra' over?
I don't adore Dickens, and have only dipped into his canon. Like you I've never got from start to finish of Christmas Carol, or even even successfully tunnelled out from the middle of Christmas Present to reach the outer limits of the Beginning of Christmas Past or the Fade Out of Christmas Future. Here's the thing: next time, probably, hopefully, on a warm decking in Brittany in midsummer 2023 I click open Christmas Carol I know I;m going to get the trip, first to last page, because what George has offered, in writing in general as well as on this particular novella by a genius wordsmith, has enlightened me about and switched me on the merits of Charles Dickens: he was great exponent of the principles which underpin great story making and conveying to readers and audiences.
I never could read Hemingway either. Phew! I thought I was alone. However through this class I understand it better. Going to have another look someday.
Very well put, Julie. Can't get through Xmas Carol either, and got more from George's leading us through the Hemingway, who I can't stand either (annoying as the macho crap is, it's the banal sentences that I find irredeemable) than I ever did on my own.
Always good now and then to see through a pair of eyes that are not mine!
Julie, I am with you on every point here!
Hi George,
I just wanted to say that I am an English teacher, have been for 38 years, and that this year for the first seven or so weeks of school I used your wonderful book, A Swim in a Pond in the Rain. My students had never read anything like that before, and I must say, neither did I, since I believe that book to be something of an anomaly. Your warmth, your insight, your passion, your humor, all entranced them, as it did me, and they learned more about literature and writing than any of my students have ever learned (although I have tried) throughout all my years of teaching. Every day for those seven weeks, we sat in a circle and discussed your words, the words of those Russian authors, and what it means to be human through those filters. I watched them transform from adolescents to students of life. Because of your writing, we have become a true community of learners, where the text has become the teacher, and I, I am just another voice, joining with theirs, attempting to come to understanding, as I am in my life outside of school, and I simply can't thank you enough.
Yay, Jon! Let's hear it for the English teachers of this world! I'm guessing you've made a huge difference in the lives of so many of your students over the last 38 years. Great that you have now introduced them to George's book--a twofer! You and George!
I’m also an English teacher, & know that being part of this community has made me a better teacher. I love being in a place where I’m a learner.
That’s so heartwarming!
Just to say I came to your work first and then was delighted to find you offered advice about writing. I used Lincoln in the Bardo as one of my texts in an essay on form in my MA in Creative Writing (along with Machado’s In the Dream House) - got my highest mark for it so thank you for that too.
What resonates with me most is your advice to find your own shit-hill to climb. I actively want to see the world slantwise for myself and am in awe of writing that shows me the world reflected back in a new way that lets me see it from a fresh perspective. Writing isn’t real life, so I don’t need it to pretend to replicate it and I like embracing the artifice - as in theatre, it adds a dimension to the experience.
I’ve actually come to enjoy Chekov et al more from Story Club - perhaps the other way round to the original poster.
Happy Christmas and New Year and look forward to reading more in 2023.
I’m wondering now if ‘artifice’ is the right word. But playing with form or using things like ghosts or zombies or theme parks with living exhibits makes it possible to show the nub of what it is to be human in a way that’s hard to articulate directly. And it’s often just a lot funnier and more engaging.
I use Machado’s “In the Dream House” as a comp title for my memoir “My Own Private Waste Land,” which I’m querying. Perhaps you’d like to take a look.
I love both those and also used them for my MFA. We should trade critical essays!
🙌🙌🙌
I really need to incorporate this into my life: “A story doesn’t have to do everything; it just has to do something.” And I mean in my entire life, not just stories. Probably the worst thing for art is wanting to please everyone. It just can't be done, and it makes you clam up and not create art!
Thank you! My need or desire to please everyone has been crippling. (Can’t even please all my own selves most days…) Man, some of these faulty mind programs are not so easy to obliterate!
It took getting cancer to break this in me. Finally I was like, I’m in too much pain and on too many pain meds to worry about pleasing anyone. It was pretty freeing, actually. Now that I’m doing pretty well, again, I have to watch out that I don’t get bogged down by my ego again. Needing to be liked.
When we are doing well we get bogged down worrying what others think; when we’re not, we might break free. The Universe must be in love with irony!
I’m glad you’re doing well, and hopeful that you can stay above the egoistic fray. I should reimagine myself stuck in the snowy woods in Olympic National Park back in May of 2012. There was no thought of pleasing anyone, only the thought of, can I make it through the next ten feet of this snowfield without falling and sliding at 150 mph into the boulders below? Strangely enough, Lanie, that was also liberating, to the degree that when the choppers finally found me I was like, oh no, will I go right back to being the person I was before this? (Yes and no.)
(Seems like people like us more when we are authentic, anyway. If they don’t, it’s their loss.)
What a story, David! I hope you’ve written that down and if so, where can I read it?!
That’s a funny thing, Lanie. One would think, since it was such an intense experience, it would be easy to write about. So far, however, my attempts seem to have fallen flat. I have not found the proper approach, apparently. But I will try again and let you know!
No, I get it. Sometimes those experiences are the hardest to capture. Like moments that are “stranger than fiction.” Or trying to describe a spiritual or emotional experience or a beautiful sunset or vista without sounding too sentimental.
I haven't had to be rescued by helicopter---yikes!---but I've had a couple of near-misses (hit by lightning was one) and such as any life event has made it into my work it's never been by means literal or direct and this has never been by deliberate choice but seems more the pull & requirement of fiction or what the story demands. This may possibly be what Dickinson meant when she said, "tell it slant". Also, sometimes it's just enough that whatever it was happened & that it was survivable. Sometimes, a whew! is sufficient.
you've most likely written stories about being stuck somewhere or with a character wondering if they can go on. or about a character who, given an opportunity to change, does not. So maybe you have found the right approach already.
It's about voice. Find the voice David.
I am so glad I went back to this thread and read about your story. I actually love survival stories. It's one of the only way the chicken hearted like me can have a big adventure. I take that back, because I've had them too before I got older and a lot smarter. I call them "Live to Tell" stories. Write it up, please! Reimagine yourself, tell it slant if you must, but tell it!
Thank you, Dee. That is one of several projects I am working on!
So many of George's stories seem to be about a moment when people rise above ego. I have a terrible memory and don't have books to hand but The Falls springs to mind and the one about the suicidal man in the snow and the boy...and they both made me think of the snowy one in a swim in the pond master and man. If anyone has a better memory than me feel free to correct the titles :-)
The Tenth of December is the suicidal man story. You've got the other titles correct. (My memory absolutely sucks so i'm stupidly proud of myself for remembering this one. Last night, someone asked me who my representatives are, and even though I just voted for them a month ago, i had to tell her I no longer could pull up those names from the old memory bank.)
Thank you so much, if course it is (face palm).
Being free is the key word here!
It's so hard to change, but at least we can try! I am also a very punctual person, and sometimes I try and make myself late, just a little, just ten minutes. And that's when I arrive on the dot, and not ten minutes early. : ) Baby steps...
Consider regarding your punctuality a virtue! And a rare one! Oh, that more were such!
Such a very good point! Thanks, Rosanne.
Baby steps indeed!
Wishing you gentleness with yourself, David. I'm always so glad to see you here.
Happy to see you also! Working on, or playing with, the gentles. Expectations, dissolve!
It's always good to see you here, David.
Like wise!
Well now I need to add “A story doesn’t have to do everything; it just has to do something” to a sticky note right next to my other favorite sticky note which reads "Maybe don't get so butt hurt about feedback?"
I really appreciate your unapologetic you-ness. I discovered your work about a year ago and have greedily read about half of your published works at this point. You are one of those authors who keeps me chugging along even through my darkest of days. You have no idea what your stories have done for me but I hope to one day touch someone as deeply with my writing as you have with yours.
Merry Christmas <3
I came to GS’s work through a passing comment in an interview with the late, great DF Wallace who listed GS as one of the best writers going. And he was a hard nut to please.
I love DF Wallace more than words can express. His work, however humorous, has this subtle underlying sadness to it that makes me feel more deeply understood than most people can. There is something so magical about a writer that can reach through decades and make you feel a little less alone. GS's work has occasionally done that for me though with GS it's less of an emotional understanding and more of a shared whacky worldview/humor that almost gives me permission to just take everything a little less seriously. And I definitely meed that :)
Indeed DFW is a one of a kind and one of my very favorites - although he’s a maximalist whereas GS, like many of his heroes, is a taker outer. It’s interesting that you pick up on the sadness in his work. That was definitely intentional. In fact he said of Infinite Jest that he set out to write a novel about sadness - as The Pale King is, from one perspective, a novel about boredom. Sadness and boredom amongst plenty was a major concern of his and a particularly American isssue.
Yes and the juxtaposition between DFW and GS is what makes my heart sing. Such different approaches to storytelling, such different experiences. So much to learn from from each <3
Haha. Your sticky note is great.
Love those sticky notes!
Maybe we can get a Story Club merch with that quote on it! George??
Deep bow to you, George. I have been a Zen student for over 10 years but I also have a bunch of degrees and a very busy mundane world job. The fact that you can run a letter from someone who doesn't love and worship every single thing you do, and deal with it with humility and honesty, is what we need to see in writing and in life today. Thank you for your deep practice.
I teach medical humanities to medical students. During the fall, the entire course is designed to put the students in the heads of people who aren’t like them, but who might be like patients they will see one day. One of the ways I’ve done that is with George’s short stories. I use “Puppy” from Tenth of December, to get them to talk about socioeconomic class bias. They don’t know that’s what they’re doing, at least not until we’ll into the discussion, but that’s what they’re doing. In that story, George puts us brilliantly into the minds of two mothers who are doing what they believe is best to love their children. The story is whacky. The voice of the first mother is incredibly well written. And I’m the second mother, students are sort of forced by their consciences to empathize with a “bad” person/mother. And every single year there are students who adore the session and others who think I’ve, at the very least, lost my mind, and at the worst they think I should be fired. The quote below is from a student who grew up and lives in a great deal of cultural advantage. And in his late twenties/early thirties, George’s fiction makes it not-too-late to make him an empathetic medical provider one day. It might not be for everyone, but it certainly DOES something.
Quote from student’s email to me after this year’s session...
“Prof S.
I wish I could have found the words to contribute to the class discussion today. To be honest, the content and message from your guided discussion rocked me. I have never taken the time to check my biases, especially as they pertain to wealth and class (I learned today that I have a bunch). Today was the first time I have ever done this, and I am deeply grateful for the instruction that you have provided. It quite literally left me speechless as I was uncovering all of the biases that I was too blind to witness. You have not force-fed your ideas of what is right but rather have given me a platform to investigate myself as a future PA, friend and trustee. To say that I have deeply enjoyed these topics would be an understatement, and I applaud the effort that you put into your instruction.”
I am just now reading "The Last Taxi Driver" by Lee Durkee (recommended by GS) and as a One Health-educator and practitioner (now retired from academia), I think it's also a must-read for prospective health professionals. I'm delighted to hear about your work, Ethan, and your successful connection with the students. Thanks for carrying on that essential work!
Wow! It must have been so gratifying to read this, Ethan. And how incredibly cool that you are able to share that anecdote here--I hope George has seen this too.
THANK YOU for guiding some of our future doctors down a path of empathy.
Thanks, Melissa. I sent the email to George. No surprise, he responded so graciously.
That is fantastic, Ethan. I am put in mind of the opening lines of The Great Gatsby. So often we have no idea of our advantages, or we have been trained to not see them. Great work; and, thank you!
I’ve fallen into a dream job. It’s pretty amazing to watch these folks “get it”, and know they’re bringing that to the bedside of all of us and our loved ones.
Bedside manner is, I imagine, incredibly important in jump-starting the mind and body into the healing process.
Super late response here. Just a hello from another health humanities person. I teach undergrads in health sciences using the same approach. It's so powerful and your comment captures it very well. Tenth of December is another great teaching tool. Next week, we dive into War Dances by Sherman Alexie to get at some of the issues you've raised.
We need to connect! Where do you teach?
I'm at York University in Toronto, Canada.
If it isn't too excruciating I would love to hear you talk about one of your stories in here as you suggest. Maybe breaking it into sections.
I think one of the things I've learned already from the freakification exercise is how much I was holding back trying to please everyone or get it 'right'. Liberated like a speaker with a knowledge module added and the dial accidentally knocked to max haha
“...they come into a story of mine, are immediately confused about what is happening...”
I have to admit, that is one of the best descriptions of a George Saunders story that I have ever read. It’s completely true... and one of the things that makes me so excited when I read the work! I love that sensation of wondering what these weird words mean, what is doing on, who these people are, and for gods sake why are they in this fucked up situation?? I know that if I stick it out *something* will be made clear to me.
I can see how it’s not for all readers, though. And I can see how I might not always be in the mood for that type of experience.
I disagree with the idea that the writing and teaching are at odds with each other, though. I can’t really see it and am interested in hearing more about that perspective if anyone wants to share.
I’m a puzzle doer (words, jigsaw, logic) so dropping into a Saunders story and having to figure out the language and what’s going on - it’s totally my jam. Just love it!
Same with puzzles, etc!
Also, I think at this point I trust George to take me somewhere in the story. When I started Liberation Day I had that familiar “WTF is going on” sensation, and honestly I wasn’t in the mood at the time. But since I have been in that place with other stories George has written I was willing to stick it out.
Lee, me too. I just finished reading Liberation Day and half the fun was starting with "what the f___ is going on here?" and then reading on to figure it out. And I have more fun imagining George's inspiration for the story itself.
I’m with you! Also trying to read between an unreliable narrator’s words to find the truth. Such a pleasure to read!
Maybe teaching and writing are only at odds when the teacher wishes they had more writing time? 😉But ya gotta pay the bills!
They don’t seem contradictory to me but I can appreciate that they might appear that way to others. Our differences in brain hardware and mind software play a gigantic role here. Maybe George has simply taken the rules of the writing road laid down by others and amped them into new directions and dimensions?
Both Q & A here have my heart. And for this I not only sincerely thank you both--that question, posed better than I ever could, has been on my mind---but thank you also for pointing out, each in your own articulate way, the vital distinction between love & appreciation.
Holy cannolis. I have heard from people who "don't get it" when it comes to George's stories. I was in an MFA program and we were asked to bring in our favorite short story and mine was Tenth of December. Next thing I knew (hoo boy) there was a vociferous discussion between the lovers and the haters. So it's good for George to say that writing is "creating energy" because the "meh" response would be the worst, wouldn't it? I immediately thought that my MFA workshops with these folx would uncover the haters as talentless cretins but was wrong and happily so. It's like people who like cilantro. They're not wrong, are they? I read somewhere there's a biological marker for people who think cilantro tastes like soap. Me, I fucking LOVE cilantro but then there you go.
Yes, people who dislike cilantro are wrong. (lol-jk)
It’s still hard for my brain to wrap around hating the Tenth of December. I feel like that is one of the more accessible of George’s stories. I can’t imagine what they (those talentless cretins!) would think of Escape from Spiderhead!
Escape from Spiderhead is a fantastic litmus test. No free will for cretins! Drip on? Acknowledge appreciation of this story.
Escape from Spiderhead was the first Saunder’s story I read after introduction to it in a class. Loved it and kept going back to it. It seems to me that part of the momentum has a lot to do with omission. You add so much of your own fantasy visuals of the background setting. I wonder if a group of people sat in a room and described what the place looked like every person’s setting would be different.
I read the Harper’s Magazine anecdote out loud to my husband because it cracked me up so much.
I think I mentioned here before Murikami’s story in First Person Singular where he talks about how his writing isn’t what everyone is looking for. I still think about that section of that story all the time. How it is a pleasure for both the person offering and the person receiving to have found each other.
I think it is easy to use our tastes as a sort of snobbery. I do this all the time. Someone mentioned recently that they thought a movie that I loved was overrated by critics. In my head, I was like, “well, you just don’t get it. You’re too daft.” I don’t admire this about myself. The other, more gracious part of me gets that it’s okay to have different tastes and that not all art has to speak to all audiences in the same way. Things would get pretty boring if that was the case.
Anyway, I love the honesty in this question and in the response. And it never once crossed my mind that the asker was daft because they didn’t get into George’s work. Just in case what I said before was taken as some hint that I felt that way. I absolutely don’t.
Life is way too short to spend time trying to force yourself to like something. I may never read Proust and I’m okay with that. I did, however read three books in the Confessions of a Shopaholic series.
Happy Holidays to all of you brilliant, lovely people!!
I do this too: the snobby first reaction and the calmer, more compassionate thinking afterward. The film I get the most flack for loving is Terrence Malick's "The Tree of Life." Very esoteric. Very divisive. But, like you, I also love a good-hearted entertainer like "While You Were Sleeping." One reason I admire George's writing, though, it he often does a good job of bridging the "entertainment" aspect of fiction with the "thoughtful contemplation" element.
Being part of Story Club has also opened me up to reading more short fiction, and I find it much more freeing to take or leave a story in the genre. Did I love each story in Tenth of December equally? Of course not! Reading it felt like listening to an album front to back. Even my all-time favourite, desert island albums have their highlights.
I’ve been contemplating this very question and writing about your work on my Medium account, George. For me, I see an application of your theories espoused in “A Swim in a Pond in the Rain” in your stories. It’s like looking behind the curtain and seeing the machinery that makes it run. (Soon I will apply my own “badly imitated ‘Story Club George voice” to a reading of “The Mom of Bold Action” to show how your theories work for my (rather small) Medium or substack audience.)
And yet, as with many analytical endeavors, it’s not reductive with your stories. That is, there is something more than mere machinery. Therein lies the magic of greatness. The ineffable thing that’s difficult to pinpoint.
I, too, feel like a fan, a groupie, fan-fanning about Story Club everywhere I go. This past year, I’ve collected and read all your published books. I’m on the second read through.
All I can say is Thank you for Story Club! It has given me hope for a better life, hope for all those who love story and literature and art, and a glimpse at greatness in action, as well as some good friends.
I tell my gf often when I’m reading one of your stories - “this is so dark!” And yet. And yet. This isn’t McCarthy’s “The Road.” Contained within your stories are seeds of hope and an empathetic humanity.
Like Eliot, I see you pointing the way out of the waste land. Thank you. And happy holidays everyone.
Lee, glad to be groupies with you! Happy Holidays!
To the PNW SC groupies! We have to coffee together soon.
I'm an honorary member, right?
Even at a remove, I consider you our ringleader, Mary!
Yes!
Please let’s do this! To 2023 PNW SC coffee!
I'm raising my hand over here: can I join you guys' group? There don't seem to be any other islanders in SC and I'm in the PNW at least once a year . . . (still kicking myself for not reaching out to members when I was in Seattle last August).
I always think of you as an honorary PNW-er anyway, o tell the truth.
You and Mary may not live here now, but you both have heaps of the northwest spirit… whatever that is!
Maybe the PNW and Hawaii are each other’s back yard? After all, both were built by the fire and lava of stupendous volcanoes, and plate tectonic pressure…
OR…. We all come to you in Hawaii?? (I can dream!)
Yes! I was going to write that! Everyone should take a midwinter break in Hawaii! But then I thought that might sound cruel, considering the winter storm that's hitting most places right now :/
Me too! Haven’t been there for soooo long!
Hell yes, Manami!!
For me it would probably have to be on a Wednesday or Thursday afternoon / evening. I was lucky enough to get to spend some time with Lee and Stacya (Sea Shepard) on 9/23/22. Upcoming dates I will definitely be in Seattle are: January 11, February 22, and April 5th!
I will be in Seattle some time this spring--To Be Decided. I hope you all can meet up, whether i'm there or not!
I want to meet with you, sooner or sooner!!
I hope the stars align and we can make it happen. It’s hard for me to get away from Portland since I have two school-age kids and a husband with an unpredictable schedule, but I’ll keep my fingers crossed it all works out.
Makes me wonder if we should try for Olympia or points closer to Portland at some point…sorry for some reason I thought you were in Seattle!
Yes please! But how????
We just need to find out who is where and schedule a time. I'd be happy to be a point of contact and gather info and make arrangements. I can be reached at lee_hornbrook@yahoo.com Send an email. Let me know what area you are in, and when you can usually meet, and we'll get this started!
I feel like it might have to be more a virtual "coffee" for most of us. I live in southeast Alberta. Probably not close enough to the rest of you. Though, I visit family in Vancouver semi-regularly so… maybe?
Woukd definitely love to meet you someday, Andrew!
We can totally do a hybrid in-person meet-up + virtual. And then if/when you get to Vancouver, maybe you can get here in person. Speaking of which, my gf and I are new to PNW, and we're dying to go to Vancouver and need guidance - places to stay, things to see and do. So hit me up in email and let's chat!