I have to say, I’m overwhelmed at your generosity. Thank you so much for giving us all your thoughts and your words and your time. I was labouring away on a short story today and you’ve made me realise I’m working it too hard. I’m going to walk the dogs, chat to my mates and go back to it tomorrow with a smile on my face. Thanks
I must chime in on this. To have access to the incredible mind, processes, not to mention humor of one of the most, if not THE most sought after teachers of fiction of our time blows my mind and makes my day every time an email pops up from George Saunders.
I love "Escape from Spiderhead" (the short story). It's classic Saunders all the way through. The trailer for the movie--the scenes feel much more intense and visceral when portrayed on the screen (for me, anyway). Also, MUCH scarier. Already the story has morphed in my mind's eye into the images I've just seen. Glad I've already read the story and was able to enjoy it cleanly, without seeing Miles Teller, etc., in my brain. I'd love to have been in the room when they decided not to use "Escape From" in the title. George, did you have any input on that decision? Anyway, it looks fantastic and I look forward to watching it--though I'll be hiding behind a pillow for parts of it, I think.
As far as the Q and A--it never would have occurred to me to think you work on more than one story at a time (in creation phase). So I'm glad someone asked that question! I can barely work on ONE story, much less more than one. I loved all of George's answer, but particularly this: "And then, on a higher level, we might even learn that even this feeling of stability and settledness is temporary - we can change our method at any time, no declarations needed." As with so much in Story Club, this sentence is not just about writing, but about life.
I'm already a big fan of the Q and A on Thursdays decision!
I would guess "Escape from..." is already too associated with John Carpenter, although it would have been fun to keep it and stick Snake in there to escape from...
i'm wondering if the producers felt that "Escape from..." either gave too much away, or caused a kind of misdirection. A person hearing the movie's title would think the escape is the central plot. I have no idea, of course--i'm just making this up. Maybe somebody just liked the sound of "Spiderhead" better!
Q7 "There is, according to Mary G, such a thing as 'Classic Saunders'". Your challenge, should you choose this question, is to either describe and defend or debunk and ditch the notion that Mary G posits.
🤣
Just because George invites questions, and is up for offering answers, is no reason for us - we Here-Peer Story-Clubbers on this Salient-Substack - not to add to and further enrich the Qs and As flowing in this tributary to the River Office Hours. Or so it seems to me, certain in my inalienable write to be wrong!
I THINK, without yet being able to confirm THEREFORE I AM, that you are not wrong in alluding to 'Classic Saunders' Mary.
I didn't, being Middle English of a Somewhat Sheltered Type, know anything of George until his name popped up with attendant images when he won the Booker Prize.
Passing, quickly passing, attention meant I didn't pick up on his writings until a friend signposted me to George's delightful penchant for taking 'A Swim in a Pond in the Rain'. Brought to mind our long passed dog Leo, who was fond of 'Steering by Tail When Taking A Dip in the Local Lime Pits Pool'.
So Mary, I'm enjoying, slowly, reading George's writings, partly systematically (earliest towards most recent) and partly serendipitously (according to following up on mentions of pieces popping-up), but with well under half read so far have, for Honesty's sake to stay shy, yet, of being in able to credibly, let alone conclusively, opine on whether or not there is such a thing as 'Classic Saunders'.
All of which, above, said: I've a strengthening sense that your hypothesis will hold good and be proven rather than debunked and rejected, i.e. I will come to be able to evidence and describe rather than debunk the case for the notion that there is such a thing as 'Classic Saunders'
I'll admit to not having read the entirety of George's output! So I'll have to depend on you to let me know if I was right or not about Escape from Spiderhead.....
I did, signposted from this thread, read 'Escape from Spiderhead' the other day. If one facet of a 'Classic Saunders' story is what, having come across George's anecdote, we might label as 'The Buford Test' then it certainly passes with flying colours: having started I read from sentence to sentence, paragraph to paragraph, page to page because I was constantly interested to know what was coming next.
Not a comfortable read but not an outlandish one either. We've all, as consumers using card money not cash money, been 'sugged, mugged and frugged' big data harvesters for decades . . . who in many ways know things about us, in terms of our behaviours, than we know ourselves.
So the Spiderhead scenario was realistic when George wrote it and is just so now. What transpires in the story is creepy but convincing and lies, for me (in terms of setting, characterisation, dialogue and action), definitely on the literary side of the line that separates enduring short fiction from passing pulp fiction.
See you've got me thinking Mary, and wondering just how the screenplay written for the Netflix' film adaptation relates to the story . . . it won't be possible but it would be interesting to have sight of the screenplay before watching the movie . . . between New Yorker story and Netflix screening falls the screenplay . . . let's hope the producers and director of the film get it more right than wrong, and even be open to the possibility that it somehow adds to the richness of the original story.
the trailer seems to have the right tone, which was probably one of the hardest parts of filming the story. Looking forward to (and slightly dreading) seeing it when it comes out!
A practical, tactical question for you, George, and then a bit of a story to share.
Question: You say, "In a perfect world, I have three or four things started and sitting there on my desk.". Do you mean literally printed out on paper? Or do you mean on your "desktop", on your computer? From time to time I print mine out and there are huge advantages to that (for me) but it all has to come back to the soft copy eventually. Just wondering how you toggled back and forth between them, if you did.
Story: I cooked, very briefly, for John Updike at the end of his life. He was a neighbor of my primary employer, and had a big rambling house in the woods on the coast of Massachusetts. I was told that he always had several projects going at once, and he kept them in different rooms, with all the notes, reference books, post-its, and stacks of work-in-progress you might expect. He would just work in whichever room/project captured him at the moment, probably a lot like your process, George. I always thought that such a wonderful idea if you had the space--to really let the story/project inhabit the three-dimensional room, the better to enter its world.
P.S. To answer the question you are wondering right now I struggled mightily with myself but in the end I never brought him anything of mine to read/critique. I didn't know him well enough, and although part of my brain thought he might be grateful for a little diversion, the better part of me knew to let the man die in peace. (I still wonder though.)
"There are many stories in the mansion that is the house that I live in" sayeth the Lord Updike. Just as Arthurian Legend shows us, without needing to tell us, that "Around any half-decent banqueting table there are as many tales of heroes to be told as there are seats upon which to park-up Knighted Heroes in order that they should be able, comfortably, to regal Arthur's Court will tale of their daring-do" according to Sir John Steinbeck.
As for Isaac Babel I suspect that if he had, even living a life of privilege in a 'Soviet Writers Garden Village', enough table space to write between two stacks of his writings - let's say 'recently written on' and 'soon to be written further on' - he'd have felt himself to be in a kind of 'Privileged Proletarian Writer's Paradise'. Shame for Isaac seems - so far as I yet grasp and inkling of what led to to his horrific, and untimely, demise - to be that he could not accept being a propagandist lackey of an debased, visibly corrupting and doomed to fail Russian State.
Not that all was hardship for a recognised Soviet Writer, which I say recollecting a visit I was once, back in the day, able to pay to Maxim Gorky's house in Moscow: quite an example, maybe even a masterpiece, of Art Nouveau incorporated into Architectural Design.
What were the formative experiences that Gorky's mentors urged him to go find, in order to better his talent as a writer? As profound as being a Russian fluent Jew, scion of a wealthy mercantile family, from Ukraine's Azov Sea Odessa, serving in a Cossack Red Cavalry Division? Any comments posted - whenever - in response will, as ever, be read with interest.
I'd love to spead out. But I live in wildfire country, everything I value that is not a solid or living creature is on a small lap top. I try not to get confused on folders, and have a folder dated for the month, with current versions . . .it's all pretty much nightmarish.
Really feel you, Sallie, about being in wildfire country. That's tough. I don't know what part of the country you're in, but here in San Francisco I'm thankful for everyday that's smokefee. I'll be moving to Healdsburg in about 18 months and then will be worrying as well about fire.
I too find organizing my writing and file management a nightmare. I toggle between soft and digital copies but would like to give up paper. Not quite there yet.
May you have no need to evacuate this year and may there be no orange sun and sky days as well.
Hi, Blaze. Thanks. Good vibes help! I'm up the hill from you, in the Foothills. I keep everything of importance to me on 2 flash drives, updated at least once a day. A laptop. And a back up hardrive with my photos. If we have to evacuate, we need to get those things, my husband's heart meds, a dog and a hawk into two cars. Exhausting even to think about it! good luck in Healdsburg, which if I recall is really beautiful!
Has to be more than three, Rob, because I have husband, two dogs, and hawk. So, a cooler with animal food. Then one bag (stays mostly packed all year) and my computer. My husband has his medicines and a bag. He is a painter and refuses to let me pack any of his work. (I might sneak in my favorite painting!) The two very old station wagons are kept in good shape and full of gas. We live in an area that would be moderately difficult to get out of, depending on the direction of wind and flame, so we would be told to leave early on rather than fleeing actual flames. We have friends in a safer area who will take us in for a day or so. If I really had to run unexpectedly? The dogs, husband, hawk, my wallet and a flash drive.
Exactly what I needed to hear today (and all days), whilst sat under the watchful gaze of a small flock of unfinished story Post-its. Thank you, thank you.
"Just to let you know Sir, your three, full, bags have been despatched Fed Ex. And you'll be pleased to find a fourth arrival along with them . . . a close shearing of the "Blah Blah Black Sheep" that it was obvious, to our experienced retail 👁, you wanted to know all about but we're simply to reticent - for obvious reasons - to ask about."
"Thank you for your custom. We hope to welcome you back soon but never doubt that, even should it be later rather than sooner, we will always be here to supply best value highest quality solutions to you ever evolving favoured customer requirements."
"And, if I may make so bold as to enquire: what need of you, out there in warmest Bermudan waters and climes, for finest fresh shorn wools?"
"Thank you. In anticipation of your, always, enlightening and illuminating response."
Thank you for the prompt response. Now that the sheep are shorn hopefully a leader has been revealed so that the sheep dog can go on a much needed holiday. Best regards for the wool...we plan too make Bermuda shorts with the yarn and also knee socks. We will be ready for this winter and our foul weather and damp days semi tropical speaking^^
🦍 "Seriously? Of course I'm not sheepish: I'm the Silver Back Alpha Spark that just burst unexpectedly - and without invitation - onto the scene in the vicinity of Cassandra's 'Post-It-Seed-Stories-Board'! What if . . . I get to join the flock ❔ . . . or if . . . I don't get to join ❓"
"This brings to mind something else we might want to put into play in future discussions: the dangers of believing too simply in rigor and efficiency – two qualities we’ve been discussing and praising a lot here in Story Club."
They deserve praise, of course, and I've had my eye opened in Story Club to levels of detailed craft that I simply didn't know existed. And yet...
I'd like to know how much obsession and simply putting long hours in play a part in writing for you, George, and for the other contributors here. I can't help noticing that if I switch from writing 5 hours a day, which is what many pros recommend, to 10 or even 15 hours a day, the entire experience is transformed and the writing just flows in a very different way. The subconscious seems to take over *completely*, you're barely aware of what room you're in never mind your name, and stuff starts to emerge that your normal workaday mind would be incapable of (not saying that it's great, just that it's very different).
The downside, for me at least, is that in my time spent with other people, I can be little more than a wraith with a mad, thousand-yard stare, and eventually your friends and partner call you on it.
But then the Beatles at their peak were in the studio fourteen hours a day, every day, weren't they? How willing are we to piss off our friends, in order to get into that flow state?
What counts more? Immortality or a passing annoyance? (This is also why it's hard to be close to non-writers; writers wouldn't give it a second thought. They'd just bring you a cup of coffee and ask how's it going?)
Thanks, as always, for this post. And I'm so happy with the shift to office hours. Honestly one of the silver linings during this pandemic for me has been the access to great teachers (here and with two other interests I have). Wonderful to now have a Q&A on Story Club!
This post made me aware that when I write I have neglected to have fun--sometimes it has happened "accidentally," but in general I try too hard.
Reading "Escape from Spiderhead" (and, wow, what a great story), I was immediately struck by what I am not doing (and which Spiderhead obviously is): I'm not going far enough. I'm holding back, turning away from the discomfort of hanging out in the unknown, in outer space (or inner space).
The common element of these two is fear, and I really needed this reminder that the antidote to fear is joy, word play, goofing around . . . whooping it up on the joy-fear teeter-totter.
This was not my question, but it still seems to answer mine for me in many ways, so I really enjoyed reading this post today. Things I took from it: when to recognize that logic or reasoning is not working for you; pivoting to another work-in-progress that feels more fun; thinking of exploratory writing as "goofing around"; and perhaps, the best, when finally engaged with one story to its end, the idea that "I am about to learn so much." What a great attitude. We all worry, about our writing, yes. Sometimes that can really get in the way. Time, at least for me, to let some if not all of that worry go, I think.
I can't even imagine how exciting it would be to see a story I wrote translated into film with real actors and scenery and everything. Congratulations are in order I believe. I can't wait to watch the show!!
Re: "Spiderhead": I read the piece about it on Lithub, then read the story, and, yes, sallie and mary g., I too will be hiding my head through parts of the movie. I was a huge fan of "Breaking Bad" and watched every grueling, horrifying moment (even the "Box Cutter" episode!). I understand that "Better Call Saul" is terrific (husband loves it), but after a few episodes I quit watching--it made me too nervous. Now why the change in me? Age? But I'll gird my loins for "Spiderhead." Actually, I can't wait.
Nancy I’ve been thinking about that, too. I used to love dark stories (not horror, but like “The Ice Storm” or “Mephisto”...but now even “Curb Your Enthusiasm” gives me anxiety. I did finish Breaking Bad, but... boy some of those scenes were tough. So I’ve been wondering... is that an age thing? This fear of a story haunting me too much? Is it some survival mechanism in the brain that makes us avoid certain stories?
I heard Giancarlo Esposito speak during "Breaking Bad" filming (it was shot in Albuquerque, my town). He said he watched "Box Cutter" with his teenaged daughters, wondering how they'd take it. When it was over, one said, "Righteous kill, Daddy." So maybe age has something to do with it. I dunno.
Such interesting questions, Stacya and Nancy! I’ve wondered about this, too. For myself, I think I used to discount or ignore my emotional reactions a lot of the time, privileging some idea of good/serious art over my embodied experience. Before each episode of Breaking Bad, I felt a reluctant almost-dread, but I powered through and watched it anyway. I’m less inclined to do that now. I'd rather steer away from things that make me feel anxiety and despair, playing into my worst fears about humanity – I don’t need any extra help feeling those things! More often, what I seek out is art that opens my heart, makes me laugh, challenges what I thought I knew, makes me hopeful – all things I need help with!
(My latest encounter with the latter kind of art is Everything, Everywhere, All At Once – a beautiful, absurd, compassionate, deeply moving film!)
I loved that movie!!! So fun. Yes, agree, it’s hard to get geared up for watching something extremely violent right now. Glad I watched Breaking Bad-- glad I’m not watching it now.
The director Trevor Nunn once said, Up to age 30 you believe you learn something new with each project—after 30 you realise you start each project with empty hands.
I read "Spiderhead" - it is the most disturbing story on earth. I hated it. I loved it. I think it's miraculous. The clip didn't do it for me. Gimme the words!
I caught that flash of your book in the trailer! :) Thank you for giving those of us who are behind the chance to be "in it". And I appreciate your saying we aren't really behind because I sure feel like those last few people in a marathon with the police car creeping up on my sore calves and the sun way too high in the sky.
Hi Terzah. I know, I know, I know--no matter how often or emphatically George says there is no "falling behind," I still feel like I am. It's so great that he gives us so many ways to respond/participate/play. There is no one-size-fits-all. I loved your marathon analogy. In 2019 my husband participated in a bike race in Bhutan, "The Tour of the Dragon," something like 160 miles over three Himalayan mountain passes. He trained hard, but he was in his 60s, diabetic, and in no shape to go the distance. (He did not feel defeated, but really triumphant that he'd done his best and made it a third of the way.) I was in the car BEHIND the police car practically bumping his rear tire. It was agonizing to watch his agony. No pounding sun, though--the race started at 1 a.m., and he threw in the towel about dawn. You brought back memories.
That's an amazing story, Nancy! Neither of you will ever forget that. Did you see that dawn over those fabled mountains? As for falling behind here....I can only ever read part of the comments on any given post, just enough to enjoy a few of them fully and then I just have to skim and get hints of the others. I tell myself my day for fully immersing myself in projects like this one will come. I'm very happy that I've been here from the beginning. It's like church for me.
I'm thinking about "The Falls," which is pretty much a perfect and seamless story. I was surprised and enlightened to learn that George wrote the first character, didn't know what to do with that piece, and put it in a drawer until the second character came along. I'm working on a long story, with inevitable fun/easy bits and dead/dead/dead bits. Story Club and its readings have inspired me on three occasions to start something new in response. Today's Q&A makes me feel I have permission to toggle back and forth among them. Thanks, George and everybody!
When I write, I'm pretty much dedicated to 'working at it' through my head. So I appreciated your saying: "...I will therefore be less afraid and cautious and can jettison the dreaded method-intellect-logic trio in favor of some good old goofing around."
About a year ago, I was toggling back and forth between four short stories, and it felt great. They were all "completed," as in, they had all reached the end of their first drafts. But you know that a first draft is far from what a story will become, what it's capable of becoming. A first draft is just the beginning. So, I would work on revising one story through a few drafts for a few weeks, and then put it down and pick up one of the other stories. And this all felt really good. It felt joyful! I wrote every morning for an hour and a half before the kids woke up. It was sacred time. At night I would will myself to fall asleep quickly, eager to wake up and climb back into my writing. But as the months passed, I got impatient. When would one of these stories be finished? Damn it! I wanted to publish something. I had artificial deadlines in my mind about when I would publish something. And I decided I was being lazy with these stories. What I needed to do was work on one until it was DONE, no exceptions.
So, I tried that. And I did make some really big progress with the story I chose to focus on. But then I ran into walls with the story. I struggled with it. And I read it over and over and over so many times that the words stopped making sense, and it wasn't long before the joy drained from my mornings, and I no longer went to bed impatient to fall asleep so I could wake up and write. I started hating the story I was working on, and I dreaded working on it. And I missed my other stories. I had so many fresh ideas and thoughts about them, but I told myself I wasn't allowed near them until I was "finished" with the one I was wrestling with. Eventually, defeated and dejected, I abandoned the story I was trying to finish. I decided it would never work. It had failed. I had failed.
Depressed about that failure, I stopped writing in the morning for a few weeks. And the world turned gray. And my obligations to my job and my house and my family felt heavier, and more irritating. But, worried that weeks of not writing would turn into years of not writing if I wasn’t careful, I gritted my teeth, and returned to the page. I picked up one of my other stories. The first few days were rough, but it wasn’t long before the joy of writing overtook me again. I worked on that story intently for a while.
One day, I casually picked up the failed story I had abandoned. And I read it for the first time in weeks. And its tangles unknotted, and its drains unclogged, and my eyes widened. I could see it, the way through! I saw the story, I saw what it needed, and I loved it once again. I finished it in March and sent it out into the world. I don’t know what will happen to it out there. I don’t know if it will find a home or not. But I don’t care. It’s finished, it’s beautiful, I love it.
I have five stories in the works now. Two of them really are almost there. They’ll get there, I’m not worried about it. George, I wish I had read this post of yours a year ago! It might have saved me from all that doubt and recrimination. But I am so, so happy to be reading your posts now. I can’t believe my luck, the luck of all of us here at story club, that we get to learn from you this way. Somehow, through some kind of loaves and fishes, biblical-level alchemy, you turned those six seats in your master class at Syracuse into infinite seats, enough for every writer who wants one. THANK YOU!
Q&A Thursdays - my new favorite day of the week. Unlike mary g., I have not read "Escape from Spiderhead" before seeing the trailer. So now I'm looking forward to reading the story before seeing the movie, so my mind can create the images before the filmmakers fill it with their vision. Looks like a lot of fun.
Recently I've immersed myself into the George Saunders' oeuvre...devouring the works. It's given me so many ideas of what to write and how to write. I juggle so many writing tasks at the same time, that I understand working on more than one work at a time. But only recently during my transition from teaching to writing have I had the opportunity to work on more than one creative project at a time, story or novella or novel or memoir.
A follow-up question, George, is have you always worked on more than one story at a time? Or has your process in working on more than one story at a time, in grabbing that fun brass ring, something that has developed over time?
Thanks again for your generosity of knowledge and time.
I have to say, I’m overwhelmed at your generosity. Thank you so much for giving us all your thoughts and your words and your time. I was labouring away on a short story today and you’ve made me realise I’m working it too hard. I’m going to walk the dogs, chat to my mates and go back to it tomorrow with a smile on my face. Thanks
Blush, and thanks. I LOVE what we are all doing here together.
I must chime in on this. To have access to the incredible mind, processes, not to mention humor of one of the most, if not THE most sought after teachers of fiction of our time blows my mind and makes my day every time an email pops up from George Saunders.
Yes, yes, yes!
I love "Escape from Spiderhead" (the short story). It's classic Saunders all the way through. The trailer for the movie--the scenes feel much more intense and visceral when portrayed on the screen (for me, anyway). Also, MUCH scarier. Already the story has morphed in my mind's eye into the images I've just seen. Glad I've already read the story and was able to enjoy it cleanly, without seeing Miles Teller, etc., in my brain. I'd love to have been in the room when they decided not to use "Escape From" in the title. George, did you have any input on that decision? Anyway, it looks fantastic and I look forward to watching it--though I'll be hiding behind a pillow for parts of it, I think.
As far as the Q and A--it never would have occurred to me to think you work on more than one story at a time (in creation phase). So I'm glad someone asked that question! I can barely work on ONE story, much less more than one. I loved all of George's answer, but particularly this: "And then, on a higher level, we might even learn that even this feeling of stability and settledness is temporary - we can change our method at any time, no declarations needed." As with so much in Story Club, this sentence is not just about writing, but about life.
I'm already a big fan of the Q and A on Thursdays decision!
I would guess "Escape from..." is already too associated with John Carpenter, although it would have been fun to keep it and stick Snake in there to escape from...
i'm wondering if the producers felt that "Escape from..." either gave too much away, or caused a kind of misdirection. A person hearing the movie's title would think the escape is the central plot. I have no idea, of course--i'm just making this up. Maybe somebody just liked the sound of "Spiderhead" better!
Q7 "There is, according to Mary G, such a thing as 'Classic Saunders'". Your challenge, should you choose this question, is to either describe and defend or debunk and ditch the notion that Mary G posits.
🤣
Just because George invites questions, and is up for offering answers, is no reason for us - we Here-Peer Story-Clubbers on this Salient-Substack - not to add to and further enrich the Qs and As flowing in this tributary to the River Office Hours. Or so it seems to me, certain in my inalienable write to be wrong!
😭
You're up, Rob! What do YOU think?
I THINK, without yet being able to confirm THEREFORE I AM, that you are not wrong in alluding to 'Classic Saunders' Mary.
I didn't, being Middle English of a Somewhat Sheltered Type, know anything of George until his name popped up with attendant images when he won the Booker Prize.
Passing, quickly passing, attention meant I didn't pick up on his writings until a friend signposted me to George's delightful penchant for taking 'A Swim in a Pond in the Rain'. Brought to mind our long passed dog Leo, who was fond of 'Steering by Tail When Taking A Dip in the Local Lime Pits Pool'.
So Mary, I'm enjoying, slowly, reading George's writings, partly systematically (earliest towards most recent) and partly serendipitously (according to following up on mentions of pieces popping-up), but with well under half read so far have, for Honesty's sake to stay shy, yet, of being in able to credibly, let alone conclusively, opine on whether or not there is such a thing as 'Classic Saunders'.
All of which, above, said: I've a strengthening sense that your hypothesis will hold good and be proven rather than debunked and rejected, i.e. I will come to be able to evidence and describe rather than debunk the case for the notion that there is such a thing as 'Classic Saunders'
Rene de Rob 😇
I'll admit to not having read the entirety of George's output! So I'll have to depend on you to let me know if I was right or not about Escape from Spiderhead.....
I did, signposted from this thread, read 'Escape from Spiderhead' the other day. If one facet of a 'Classic Saunders' story is what, having come across George's anecdote, we might label as 'The Buford Test' then it certainly passes with flying colours: having started I read from sentence to sentence, paragraph to paragraph, page to page because I was constantly interested to know what was coming next.
Not a comfortable read but not an outlandish one either. We've all, as consumers using card money not cash money, been 'sugged, mugged and frugged' big data harvesters for decades . . . who in many ways know things about us, in terms of our behaviours, than we know ourselves.
So the Spiderhead scenario was realistic when George wrote it and is just so now. What transpires in the story is creepy but convincing and lies, for me (in terms of setting, characterisation, dialogue and action), definitely on the literary side of the line that separates enduring short fiction from passing pulp fiction.
See you've got me thinking Mary, and wondering just how the screenplay written for the Netflix' film adaptation relates to the story . . . it won't be possible but it would be interesting to have sight of the screenplay before watching the movie . . . between New Yorker story and Netflix screening falls the screenplay . . . let's hope the producers and director of the film get it more right than wrong, and even be open to the possibility that it somehow adds to the richness of the original story.
the trailer seems to have the right tone, which was probably one of the hardest parts of filming the story. Looking forward to (and slightly dreading) seeing it when it comes out!
A practical, tactical question for you, George, and then a bit of a story to share.
Question: You say, "In a perfect world, I have three or four things started and sitting there on my desk.". Do you mean literally printed out on paper? Or do you mean on your "desktop", on your computer? From time to time I print mine out and there are huge advantages to that (for me) but it all has to come back to the soft copy eventually. Just wondering how you toggled back and forth between them, if you did.
Story: I cooked, very briefly, for John Updike at the end of his life. He was a neighbor of my primary employer, and had a big rambling house in the woods on the coast of Massachusetts. I was told that he always had several projects going at once, and he kept them in different rooms, with all the notes, reference books, post-its, and stacks of work-in-progress you might expect. He would just work in whichever room/project captured him at the moment, probably a lot like your process, George. I always thought that such a wonderful idea if you had the space--to really let the story/project inhabit the three-dimensional room, the better to enter its world.
P.S. To answer the question you are wondering right now I struggled mightily with myself but in the end I never brought him anything of mine to read/critique. I didn't know him well enough, and although part of my brain thought he might be grateful for a little diversion, the better part of me knew to let the man die in peace. (I still wonder though.)
On the desk, or on a nearby table, printed out.
Fascinating to hear that about Updike - I think Babel did a similar thing, but with various stories on a big central table in the house.
"There are many stories in the mansion that is the house that I live in" sayeth the Lord Updike. Just as Arthurian Legend shows us, without needing to tell us, that "Around any half-decent banqueting table there are as many tales of heroes to be told as there are seats upon which to park-up Knighted Heroes in order that they should be able, comfortably, to regal Arthur's Court will tale of their daring-do" according to Sir John Steinbeck.
As for Isaac Babel I suspect that if he had, even living a life of privilege in a 'Soviet Writers Garden Village', enough table space to write between two stacks of his writings - let's say 'recently written on' and 'soon to be written further on' - he'd have felt himself to be in a kind of 'Privileged Proletarian Writer's Paradise'. Shame for Isaac seems - so far as I yet grasp and inkling of what led to to his horrific, and untimely, demise - to be that he could not accept being a propagandist lackey of an debased, visibly corrupting and doomed to fail Russian State.
Not that all was hardship for a recognised Soviet Writer, which I say recollecting a visit I was once, back in the day, able to pay to Maxim Gorky's house in Moscow: quite an example, maybe even a masterpiece, of Art Nouveau incorporated into Architectural Design.
What were the formative experiences that Gorky's mentors urged him to go find, in order to better his talent as a writer? As profound as being a Russian fluent Jew, scion of a wealthy mercantile family, from Ukraine's Azov Sea Odessa, serving in a Cossack Red Cavalry Division? Any comments posted - whenever - in response will, as ever, be read with interest.
A bientot, mes amis.
I'd love to spead out. But I live in wildfire country, everything I value that is not a solid or living creature is on a small lap top. I try not to get confused on folders, and have a folder dated for the month, with current versions . . .it's all pretty much nightmarish.
Really feel you, Sallie, about being in wildfire country. That's tough. I don't know what part of the country you're in, but here in San Francisco I'm thankful for everyday that's smokefee. I'll be moving to Healdsburg in about 18 months and then will be worrying as well about fire.
I too find organizing my writing and file management a nightmare. I toggle between soft and digital copies but would like to give up paper. Not quite there yet.
May you have no need to evacuate this year and may there be no orange sun and sky days as well.
Hi, Blaze. Thanks. Good vibes help! I'm up the hill from you, in the Foothills. I keep everything of importance to me on 2 flash drives, updated at least once a day. A laptop. And a back up hardrive with my photos. If we have to evacuate, we need to get those things, my husband's heart meds, a dog and a hawk into two cars. Exhausting even to think about it! good luck in Healdsburg, which if I recall is really beautiful!
May I dare ask Sallie what three things you always have ready, at call, in case of a need to fly in the face of advancing wildfire?
Has to be more than three, Rob, because I have husband, two dogs, and hawk. So, a cooler with animal food. Then one bag (stays mostly packed all year) and my computer. My husband has his medicines and a bag. He is a painter and refuses to let me pack any of his work. (I might sneak in my favorite painting!) The two very old station wagons are kept in good shape and full of gas. We live in an area that would be moderately difficult to get out of, depending on the direction of wind and flame, so we would be told to leave early on rather than fleeing actual flames. We have friends in a safer area who will take us in for a day or so. If I really had to run unexpectedly? The dogs, husband, hawk, my wallet and a flash drive.
Melissa, what an experience that must have been. Something on which to build a story, yes?
Exactly what I needed to hear today (and all days), whilst sat under the watchful gaze of a small flock of unfinished story Post-its. Thank you, thank you.
🐑 “Me!” 🐑 “Me!” 🐑 “Me!” 🐑 “Baa! Please Me!” 🐑 “Finish Me! Please Me! Baa, Baa! 🐑. . . 🐑 . . . 🐑 . . . 🦍 “Me?”
Have you any wool?^^
"Yes sir, yes sir, three bags of wool full. Which would you like 'Swaledale' 🐑, 'Marino' 🐏 or 'Alpaca' 🦙?"
I bag of each please..he bleated!^^
"Just to let you know Sir, your three, full, bags have been despatched Fed Ex. And you'll be pleased to find a fourth arrival along with them . . . a close shearing of the "Blah Blah Black Sheep" that it was obvious, to our experienced retail 👁, you wanted to know all about but we're simply to reticent - for obvious reasons - to ask about."
"Thank you for your custom. We hope to welcome you back soon but never doubt that, even should it be later rather than sooner, we will always be here to supply best value highest quality solutions to you ever evolving favoured customer requirements."
"And, if I may make so bold as to enquire: what need of you, out there in warmest Bermudan waters and climes, for finest fresh shorn wools?"
"Thank you. In anticipation of your, always, enlightening and illuminating response."
"Yours ever"
"B. L. Eat & Co"
"Janice have you got that?"
Thank you for the prompt response. Now that the sheep are shorn hopefully a leader has been revealed so that the sheep dog can go on a much needed holiday. Best regards for the wool...we plan too make Bermuda shorts with the yarn and also knee socks. We will be ready for this winter and our foul weather and damp days semi tropical speaking^^
Not sheepish, are we..?
🦍 "Seriously? Of course I'm not sheepish: I'm the Silver Back Alpha Spark that just burst unexpectedly - and without invitation - onto the scene in the vicinity of Cassandra's 'Post-It-Seed-Stories-Board'! What if . . . I get to join the flock ❔ . . . or if . . . I don't get to join ❓"
Ha!
You should host a Zoom watch party when the movie comes out 😉
"This brings to mind something else we might want to put into play in future discussions: the dangers of believing too simply in rigor and efficiency – two qualities we’ve been discussing and praising a lot here in Story Club."
They deserve praise, of course, and I've had my eye opened in Story Club to levels of detailed craft that I simply didn't know existed. And yet...
I'd like to know how much obsession and simply putting long hours in play a part in writing for you, George, and for the other contributors here. I can't help noticing that if I switch from writing 5 hours a day, which is what many pros recommend, to 10 or even 15 hours a day, the entire experience is transformed and the writing just flows in a very different way. The subconscious seems to take over *completely*, you're barely aware of what room you're in never mind your name, and stuff starts to emerge that your normal workaday mind would be incapable of (not saying that it's great, just that it's very different).
The downside, for me at least, is that in my time spent with other people, I can be little more than a wraith with a mad, thousand-yard stare, and eventually your friends and partner call you on it.
But then the Beatles at their peak were in the studio fourteen hours a day, every day, weren't they? How willing are we to piss off our friends, in order to get into that flow state?
What counts more? Immortality or a passing annoyance? (This is also why it's hard to be close to non-writers; writers wouldn't give it a second thought. They'd just bring you a cup of coffee and ask how's it going?)
Thanks, as always, for this post. And I'm so happy with the shift to office hours. Honestly one of the silver linings during this pandemic for me has been the access to great teachers (here and with two other interests I have). Wonderful to now have a Q&A on Story Club!
This post made me aware that when I write I have neglected to have fun--sometimes it has happened "accidentally," but in general I try too hard.
Reading "Escape from Spiderhead" (and, wow, what a great story), I was immediately struck by what I am not doing (and which Spiderhead obviously is): I'm not going far enough. I'm holding back, turning away from the discomfort of hanging out in the unknown, in outer space (or inner space).
The common element of these two is fear, and I really needed this reminder that the antidote to fear is joy, word play, goofing around . . . whooping it up on the joy-fear teeter-totter.
This was not my question, but it still seems to answer mine for me in many ways, so I really enjoyed reading this post today. Things I took from it: when to recognize that logic or reasoning is not working for you; pivoting to another work-in-progress that feels more fun; thinking of exploratory writing as "goofing around"; and perhaps, the best, when finally engaged with one story to its end, the idea that "I am about to learn so much." What a great attitude. We all worry, about our writing, yes. Sometimes that can really get in the way. Time, at least for me, to let some if not all of that worry go, I think.
I can't even imagine how exciting it would be to see a story I wrote translated into film with real actors and scenery and everything. Congratulations are in order I believe. I can't wait to watch the show!!
Re: "Spiderhead": I read the piece about it on Lithub, then read the story, and, yes, sallie and mary g., I too will be hiding my head through parts of the movie. I was a huge fan of "Breaking Bad" and watched every grueling, horrifying moment (even the "Box Cutter" episode!). I understand that "Better Call Saul" is terrific (husband loves it), but after a few episodes I quit watching--it made me too nervous. Now why the change in me? Age? But I'll gird my loins for "Spiderhead." Actually, I can't wait.
Nancy I’ve been thinking about that, too. I used to love dark stories (not horror, but like “The Ice Storm” or “Mephisto”...but now even “Curb Your Enthusiasm” gives me anxiety. I did finish Breaking Bad, but... boy some of those scenes were tough. So I’ve been wondering... is that an age thing? This fear of a story haunting me too much? Is it some survival mechanism in the brain that makes us avoid certain stories?
I heard Giancarlo Esposito speak during "Breaking Bad" filming (it was shot in Albuquerque, my town). He said he watched "Box Cutter" with his teenaged daughters, wondering how they'd take it. When it was over, one said, "Righteous kill, Daddy." So maybe age has something to do with it. I dunno.
Hahaha! Wow. Righteous Kill is the best band name.
Such interesting questions, Stacya and Nancy! I’ve wondered about this, too. For myself, I think I used to discount or ignore my emotional reactions a lot of the time, privileging some idea of good/serious art over my embodied experience. Before each episode of Breaking Bad, I felt a reluctant almost-dread, but I powered through and watched it anyway. I’m less inclined to do that now. I'd rather steer away from things that make me feel anxiety and despair, playing into my worst fears about humanity – I don’t need any extra help feeling those things! More often, what I seek out is art that opens my heart, makes me laugh, challenges what I thought I knew, makes me hopeful – all things I need help with!
(My latest encounter with the latter kind of art is Everything, Everywhere, All At Once – a beautiful, absurd, compassionate, deeply moving film!)
I loved that movie!!! So fun. Yes, agree, it’s hard to get geared up for watching something extremely violent right now. Glad I watched Breaking Bad-- glad I’m not watching it now.
The director Trevor Nunn once said, Up to age 30 you believe you learn something new with each project—after 30 you realise you start each project with empty hands.
Good one.
I read "Spiderhead" - it is the most disturbing story on earth. I hated it. I loved it. I think it's miraculous. The clip didn't do it for me. Gimme the words!
I caught that flash of your book in the trailer! :) Thank you for giving those of us who are behind the chance to be "in it". And I appreciate your saying we aren't really behind because I sure feel like those last few people in a marathon with the police car creeping up on my sore calves and the sun way too high in the sky.
Hi Terzah. I know, I know, I know--no matter how often or emphatically George says there is no "falling behind," I still feel like I am. It's so great that he gives us so many ways to respond/participate/play. There is no one-size-fits-all. I loved your marathon analogy. In 2019 my husband participated in a bike race in Bhutan, "The Tour of the Dragon," something like 160 miles over three Himalayan mountain passes. He trained hard, but he was in his 60s, diabetic, and in no shape to go the distance. (He did not feel defeated, but really triumphant that he'd done his best and made it a third of the way.) I was in the car BEHIND the police car practically bumping his rear tire. It was agonizing to watch his agony. No pounding sun, though--the race started at 1 a.m., and he threw in the towel about dawn. You brought back memories.
You haven't fallen behind until you're dead.
Like you working to avoid this as long as possible..but the days keep burning^^
That's an amazing story, Nancy! Neither of you will ever forget that. Did you see that dawn over those fabled mountains? As for falling behind here....I can only ever read part of the comments on any given post, just enough to enjoy a few of them fully and then I just have to skim and get hints of the others. I tell myself my day for fully immersing myself in projects like this one will come. I'm very happy that I've been here from the beginning. It's like church for me.
Yeah, there's nothing more humbling than facing the universe of a blank page and praying you can fill it. (and hearing the angels sing when you do...)
I'm thinking about "The Falls," which is pretty much a perfect and seamless story. I was surprised and enlightened to learn that George wrote the first character, didn't know what to do with that piece, and put it in a drawer until the second character came along. I'm working on a long story, with inevitable fun/easy bits and dead/dead/dead bits. Story Club and its readings have inspired me on three occasions to start something new in response. Today's Q&A makes me feel I have permission to toggle back and forth among them. Thanks, George and everybody!
When I write, I'm pretty much dedicated to 'working at it' through my head. So I appreciated your saying: "...I will therefore be less afraid and cautious and can jettison the dreaded method-intellect-logic trio in favor of some good old goofing around."
A Year in the Life of a New Writer
About a year ago, I was toggling back and forth between four short stories, and it felt great. They were all "completed," as in, they had all reached the end of their first drafts. But you know that a first draft is far from what a story will become, what it's capable of becoming. A first draft is just the beginning. So, I would work on revising one story through a few drafts for a few weeks, and then put it down and pick up one of the other stories. And this all felt really good. It felt joyful! I wrote every morning for an hour and a half before the kids woke up. It was sacred time. At night I would will myself to fall asleep quickly, eager to wake up and climb back into my writing. But as the months passed, I got impatient. When would one of these stories be finished? Damn it! I wanted to publish something. I had artificial deadlines in my mind about when I would publish something. And I decided I was being lazy with these stories. What I needed to do was work on one until it was DONE, no exceptions.
So, I tried that. And I did make some really big progress with the story I chose to focus on. But then I ran into walls with the story. I struggled with it. And I read it over and over and over so many times that the words stopped making sense, and it wasn't long before the joy drained from my mornings, and I no longer went to bed impatient to fall asleep so I could wake up and write. I started hating the story I was working on, and I dreaded working on it. And I missed my other stories. I had so many fresh ideas and thoughts about them, but I told myself I wasn't allowed near them until I was "finished" with the one I was wrestling with. Eventually, defeated and dejected, I abandoned the story I was trying to finish. I decided it would never work. It had failed. I had failed.
Depressed about that failure, I stopped writing in the morning for a few weeks. And the world turned gray. And my obligations to my job and my house and my family felt heavier, and more irritating. But, worried that weeks of not writing would turn into years of not writing if I wasn’t careful, I gritted my teeth, and returned to the page. I picked up one of my other stories. The first few days were rough, but it wasn’t long before the joy of writing overtook me again. I worked on that story intently for a while.
One day, I casually picked up the failed story I had abandoned. And I read it for the first time in weeks. And its tangles unknotted, and its drains unclogged, and my eyes widened. I could see it, the way through! I saw the story, I saw what it needed, and I loved it once again. I finished it in March and sent it out into the world. I don’t know what will happen to it out there. I don’t know if it will find a home or not. But I don’t care. It’s finished, it’s beautiful, I love it.
I have five stories in the works now. Two of them really are almost there. They’ll get there, I’m not worried about it. George, I wish I had read this post of yours a year ago! It might have saved me from all that doubt and recrimination. But I am so, so happy to be reading your posts now. I can’t believe my luck, the luck of all of us here at story club, that we get to learn from you this way. Somehow, through some kind of loaves and fishes, biblical-level alchemy, you turned those six seats in your master class at Syracuse into infinite seats, enough for every writer who wants one. THANK YOU!
Q&A Thursdays - my new favorite day of the week. Unlike mary g., I have not read "Escape from Spiderhead" before seeing the trailer. So now I'm looking forward to reading the story before seeing the movie, so my mind can create the images before the filmmakers fill it with their vision. Looks like a lot of fun.
Recently I've immersed myself into the George Saunders' oeuvre...devouring the works. It's given me so many ideas of what to write and how to write. I juggle so many writing tasks at the same time, that I understand working on more than one work at a time. But only recently during my transition from teaching to writing have I had the opportunity to work on more than one creative project at a time, story or novella or novel or memoir.
A follow-up question, George, is have you always worked on more than one story at a time? Or has your process in working on more than one story at a time, in grabbing that fun brass ring, something that has developed over time?
Thanks again for your generosity of knowledge and time.