It might be helpful (or not..) to know that a feeling of succes is never a given - not even when your work has been published, received critical acclaim and been translated into other languages than your own (and yes, I speak from experience here). What I try to think about at those insecure moments, is literature as a choir - what really matters in the end is the quality of that choir to which your voice contributes, and whether you’ve done your utmost to enrich the sound of its song, in your own small way, and even if just for a few readers.
I’m so happy to see you here! We have been emailing about my manuscript years ago and your help and advice was very valuable to me. And of course I have read your books and they mean a lot to me. One in particular has helped me a lot, you probably know which one.
Wytske, your "choir" metaphor here evokes for me the poet Gregory Orr's powerful meditation in his essay "The Given," about "The Book that is the resurrection of the body of the beloved, which is the world." In Orr's words, the "Book" is a secular/spiritual "giant anthology of poems and songs that has been gathering itself since human consciousness could be recorded in language." It is the story of humanity; everything ever written is a part of a greater whole, a collective of work which explores "every dimension of what it is to be human...this imagined 'book' is a dynamic repository of expressive forms that tells humanity’s stories." Everything we write whether published or not, is a contribution to this great collective work, this choir of voices.
This was so beautiful that I had to write it out for myself to make sure that I remember it for my own insecure moments when I can't remember why in the world I'm singing or trying to find the best words to my own song.
Your work is probably excellent--maybe not to everyone, but to certain readers out there. (Not everyone likes everything.) I think it's crazy hard to find an agent these days (as George has pointed out). The fact you've not published most likely does NOT mean your work sucks. It probably means you have to keep sending out. The gatekeepers are just people with opinions. They come and go. One day, someone's opinion will be that they love your story.
Keep sending out. You can also start your own substack RIGHT HERE and post stories! And people will read them!
This is the most obvious advice but, you know, keep writing as long as you continue to love doing so. The more you write, the better of a writer you will be. Keep sending your stuff out to the kinds of places that publish the kinds of stories you write. And, obviously, too, keep reading. I want to say that it will happen--you will be discovered. But there are so many smart and great writers out there. Who knows if you will rise to the top of some slush pile being read by someone on summer break from Swarthmore??
You never know. That's the truth. You just never know. I may be in line next year hoping for your autograph. Or you may be self-publishing 100 copies and giving them away to friends.
It's hard to not get depressed, I know. But remember all of the writers out there who are exactly like you--toiling away in obscurity. You are a member of a wonderful group! The sensitive, attentive, beautiful people!
There was a time when there was nothing I wanted more in this world than to be published. It meant EVERYTHING to me. Then I had a story published. Then a novel. and another one. And guess what? Nobody cares! It's just a thing I say when someone asks me what I do. "I'm a writer," I say. "Have you written anything I may have read?" they ask. "No," i say. (And then I shout inside my head, fuck you.)
Get this: I have given away FOR FREE my books to people as presents. And GUESS WHAT? They don't read them! Hahahahhahaha!!!
(Thank you to anyone who has read my books. I love you.)
At this moment, I've got lots of little stories on my computer. i have a novel I'm revising. It will probably never get published because it's what I'd consider unconventional and I doubt anyone would consider it a book that would make money for a publishing house. Oh, well. It's what i'm writing.
So, i guess that's my bottom line to you. Keep writing if you want to, if you love it, if it's what you end up doing even when you think you quit last week. (Oh, there's a pen in my hand? Fancy that! I guess I'm still writing!) I really, really, really hope you get published. It did help my ego when it happened. I could think, okay, I did it. And then i could calm down about it. So i hope it happens to you. But if not, don't forget that you are still a writer (because you write!). Put everything in drawers and files for that day you're discovered. Hoping for the best for you!!!
I found your advice to be helpful. I've been submitting to lit mags for months in hopes of finally getting a story published (it'd be my first). The sorrow I feel every time I recieve a rejection has made me almost quit writing so many times. The people around me believe that an unpublished writer isn't a 'real' writer; they think it's a waste of time for me to even bother writing if I'm not good enough to get a story published.
Getting something published wouldn't be life-changing in terms of kickstarting a profitable writing career, but I'd finally feel validated and like a 'real' writer. That would be enough for me.
Those people around you who you mention--I don't know who they are, but I can tell you with 100% confidence that they are absolutely dead wrong. You are a writer. And it is not a waste of time for you to write. Welcome to the community of your people--we who write because we love words and sentences. You are an esteemed member! I do hope that one day some lit mag will publish you, because I know how important that feels. But nothing changes the fact of who you are: a person who pays attention, who sees, who thinks, who feels the spirit inside of you. I understand the sorrow that comes with rejection. Tell yourself you are a baseball player--think of the thousands of times they strike out! The great Roger Federer (tennis) was a true champion, and even he won just 54% of the points he played. Just a bit over half. And he was the best ever! We all must deal with failure, though it hurts and hurts. I am validating you! You are a writer!
Keep sending those writings out. It took me 5 years to get the late Michael Curtis, former editor of the Atlantic Monthly, to take one of my stories. But he did.
I've gotten so many rejections I just don't think it bothers me as much any more. Today I got a rejection for a piece I emailed yesterday afternoon, less than 24-hours. On the other hand, getting published, it's not life-changing, but when I did get a piece published earlier this year, for a few hours I was totally on cloud nine. Having a story published on a non-paying internet site. It's worth all the rejections. Like you, I don't care about making a profitable writing career, but just want to have stuff out there, being read... Also, don't liste3n to those people around you. Tell them you are a "real" writer, but not quite yet an "author."
ok - I was stressed from just thinking about putting my essays into a book form. Who would read it but I loved writing them . A name is very im;portan so Rolf accept my apologies. Gloria
This is so funny...and true. Finally, at an age that shall not be revealed, I have decided to devote myself fully to writing and I have become what I believe I can call a writer. And...nobody cares! But if I were to be published...would "they" care then?....Probably not! But if my story should wind up in the hands of someone who would want to read it and be entertained and moved by it, all my work would be worth it. Anyway, that's what I tell myself when I go into my dark moods, trying to finish my 5 pounds and 540 page wonder. Hard copy in the file drawer and blowing up my vintage iMac with its evergrowing awesome mega bytes of space, just waiting to be...finished!
Hurray for the Unconventional!! What I like about Substack is that there are no Gatekeepers. No one calculating how much a manuscript is worth in dollars. People who write here are people who believe they have something important to say. Yesterday I read the Substack writers whose opinions I trusted instead of newspapers because I believe those writers answer only to themselves and to no editorial board. I too encourage you, Questioner, (and you too, mary g.) to publish one chapter of your book at a time on Substack and to join the choir and "enrich the sound of its song, in your own small way, and even if just for a few readers," as Wytske Versteeg says so elegantly.
The past year has been really interesting for me as a writer. After 5 failed attempts, I won 2 writing grants at the same time! This meant I could finally dedicate my time to writing full time. I’m writing a book about a really heavy subject (domestic abuse) and yet, bizarrely, I’m loving the writing process!!! Every day when I rise to write I feel like the luckiest damn girl in the world. I’m hardly making a fortune, but I’m raising two extraordinary girls as a single mother and am feeling empowered and full of purpose. As for publishing… everything I submitted to literary magazines in 2023 and so far in 2024 have been rejected. Everything. Some of those rejected poems I posted here on Substack and received the most incredible comments for, from complete strangers!! So, it’s nice to know I don’t completely suck. And I have a very experimental memoir that I queried agents with, to no success. I can’t stop writing, because it would be like trying to stop to breathe. So, I guess I’m stuck… My long way of saying, you’re not alone. Don’t give up. Don’t stop writing. Publish here on Substack.
I’m not sure if it really helps my writing, but I tend to turn to reading and sewing. The reading might be an obvious thing because it’s connected to writing, but sewing easy projects that are pretty and mindless just relaxes me and I can come up with new ideas. I think other people may have some kind of craft work that they do for similar reasons and find it helpful. Perhaps others are familiar with the Grace Paley poem about baking a pie instead of writing a poem because the pie will find an appreciative audience. It’s Inter-work.
Jury out? Yes. Directed by Judge to determine their verdict: "Mary G; Write or Wrong?"
😅 Wow! Me and My Buddies are, no way, swanning-walkies down some notional avenue. We'm wants to know: Mary G. Guilty for being an insane crafter, self-confessed, or Not Guilty?
Guilty as usual, yer honour. If not of that, then something else. There's always something else, even if we don't know what it is.
I'd like to take this opportunity to state that lack of success brings special punishment in the form of guilt. Not just disappointment. Beat yourself up about you didn't work hard enough, you obstinately pluffed* the wrong furrow, you disappointed other people who were backing you, and on and on.
Yet writers are not born masochists. Keep writing is the only answer. Watch those neural networks light up when ideas come from the back of beyond. Keep doing it.
* "pluffed" is new official non-US spelling of US "plowed". How else do you pronounce "rough"?
my HS autograph book is filled with comments that all end in "Ruf!" I have no idea why. One person wrote 'rough' but someone else crossed it out and wrote 'ruf.'
Ha that’s great. I love baking a pie. I make a sugarless apple one and people crave it. It was a combo of the Pandemic, trying to quit sugar and being in a hurry. The apples are canned, but they’re the right canned apples, only one type I found worked, they naturally sweetened up just enough, when baked, the pastry is bought, sugarless, it was in the freezer and I thought what the heck. I only like one type with it, but I’ve only tried like three. Then I serve it with this yoghurt, but it has to be the right, pot set, Greek yoghurt, which is tart enough but sweet enough and so creamy, that it rockets the pie to a mouthwatering surprise. That one starts to crave. Haven’t made it in ages, since everyone went gluten free
Victoria: could you be just the story-stitch-maker that I've been hoping to run across for so many years of my fast passing life?
It's not primarily, I'm increasingly realising, about the techniques of the craft (whatever that is) but about the truth of storytelling (which we've only to read pieces penned by George (and signposted by George to some salient works of significant others) that is the insightful truth is THE singular truth at the heart of short fiction.
Regarding the first part of the question: "Is there any way we can tell the differences ourselves?"
I recently watched the wonderful documentary "In Restless Dreams: The Music of Paul Simon." In it, Simon working on a new album and explains his revision process as, "The ear goes to the irritant." This is such a great, pithy way of thinking about revision, that I think lines up perfectly with the kinds of things George has said about his revision process.
So, something I've noticed with my own writing, is that I will have a story that I think is done, but then when I think about it, my mind will involuntarily go to the part or aspect of the story that bothers me the most. The ear goes to the irritant. The things that draw my attention the most are generally the things that need fixing.
I've had some stories that have been rejected multiple times, and so I re-read them to figure out what's wrong with them, but end up thinking, "This story still does exactly what I want it to do." No irritant there. So I keep sending it out. Some of these stories were eventually published. With some others I eventually realize there *is* something that bothers me about them, and put them back in my Work in Progress folder.
Rejection sucks. It sometimes makes me wonder why I bother. But it also makes my stories better.
“The ear goes to the irritant” is exactly right from my experience. Thank you, Paul Simon and David Hammond. The more writing I have done the truer Simon’s maxim has seemed. And I think George’s notion of The Swerve is also worth thinking about. It has worked well for me, at least (recently I tried putting a short essay into stanzas instead, which allowed me reorder its elements, toss some, fine-tune others, and make it altogether more entertaining. At least to me. No, it hasn’t found a home, but at least I like it way better and the irritants are no longer raising a ruckus). Questioner, there is so much good advice from others in this thread. Keep working. Try the small presses. Find a class or start a writing group. Several small presses will also critique your work for an additional fee. Hang in here with Story Club, possibly the best writing class on the planet, and trust your ear (which listens twice as hard when you read your work aloud to yourself or your dog). All best luck to you!
Story of my life. I published a story in the Atlantic Monthly back when I was starting my career as a professor of creative writing. I had an agent and a book that got reviews and came out in a paperback edition. BUT the book didn't sell enough copies to support an agent and justify an editor accepting my second book, so I was quickly yesterday's news. In fact, when I asked the same reviewers who loved my first book why they wouldn't review my second book--published at a very small press--one said a second book is just not news. Fifteen or so years later, I changed my name. Authenticity had a lot to do with it. I had used my husband's surname for those early publications, and I was aware that the first name on those books, my nickname, sounded male, the surname is Indian. I've had a little bit of success lately with my real name, but I'm no longer young, no longer ambiguous in gender and ethnicity and no longer interesting. I don't think wanting to be noticed means quite as much to me as wanting to write what runs through my head, and it makes perfect sense to me that not all readers are going to want to read what I write, especially since I have always been writing against my culture and probably also my time. So I guess it's worth remembering that success does not come to all of us all of the time, and that's okay. That's a particular path. What I've done in response to rejection is make sure my work is always under consideration somewhere, to "court" those editors who were kind enough to send me encouraging notes, and to keep writing. I would still write, as long as I had the materials, no matter who reads my writing or who likes it. It's a means of expression. There will not always be people to listen. But I still want to sing.
Mmm. Well. I started an online mag (with a friend) to try and create a space in the world where I get to read more of what I love so I don’t feel so outsidery. First issue out in September. IMMENSELY exciting to find some top notch writing that really excites me (it’s called Neither Fish Nor Foul - to give you a flavour of our vibe and also as a teeny tiny plug for us). Also very useful to sit on the other side of the desk and articulate why a piece won’t be in the next edition. So far it isn’t that they are terrible - they just don’t feel fully realised yet.
For context, I do get published and have been placed in comps and nominated and all that. (I write flash and short stories). I also get turned down flat. I don’t submit much because I don’t finish stuff very fast and now I have a few writing years under my belt I know not to send a piece out just because I made a thing. Now I keep at it until it feels like a good thing. Then if people turn it down, I am confident it’s just a bad match, not a bad story.
I was hesitant to post as I don’t want to use the forum as a marketing tool (not that any money will exchange hands, we can only offer our time at the moment).
I feel like I taught myself to write by joining workshops I paid to be in (One Story, there are lots of them out there, with brilliant instructors) and whenever possible asking other writers to be in weekly workshops where we read each others work. Sometimes I asked other writers from those workshops, sometimes I found other people looking to join through word of mouth. Sometimes I talked people into it. So I had lots and lots of people reading my work and commenting on it. Sometimes that can be insanely frustrating -- but you do get a sense of how people feel about the work, you can see where you lost their interest, you can see what gets them excited. And over several years, getting feedback on everything I wrote, I started to figure things out, and was able to answer the questions you're asking much better. It can be painful when no one likes what you've written, but not as painful as fifty rejections from Lit mags, while giving you no feedback on why it wasn't taken. You may not learn what's good or not good from a workshop, but you will definitely learn what your readers are thinking!
Susan, this is really helpful, yes. Getting feedback from anyone - but writers especially - is so crucial to understanding if our writing is making an impression
Again, Story Club is helpful. I’m looking forward to the other comments.
I’ve twice given up writing fiction; in both cases it was because I was too sensitive to participate fully in the rejection process; the “me” in me was poached, not hard boiled. This time I am doing a novel, not stories, and my plan is to finish it, put it away, eat spinach and take cold baths, butch up and become the creature I must be in order to pilot the book to its final destination, be that buried on my hard drive, or a book store near you.
Part of the writing life I find meaningful and validating is being a literary citizen & attending local events where writers -- emerging or published -- read their work. Most events leave me renewed to keep writing. It helps to be in a big city but there are online communities. And I've joined workshops that meet me where I'm at, not trying to make me into a writer who already exists. I say all this because the first thing I do if I feel like I'm not getting anywhere with my writing is to connect with more writers, especially since I didn't do an MFA. Sometimes I'm asked to read my work, which is exciting & helpful for hearing how an audience receives it in real time. What drags, what gets laughs. Writing classes (at nonprofits) have also helped me over time (even taking classes bc of the teacher & being curious about how they translate their writing style or philosophy or methods to the classroom). Getting better at writing to be published also requires knowing what's being published & it helps to meet people who are doing just that. I don't mean meeting celebrity writers, even just writers a few steps ahead on the publishing journey from you. I've also learned of many small presses & local literary magazines this way. Writing might be solitary but a writing life doesn't have to be, even if you're not yet published.
To all of us that lament not finding a path to publish our work,
My little way in this is to recall how many books did Franz Kafka bring to market? How many paintings did Vincent Van Gogh sell in his life time? What happened to Herman Melville after he labored Moby Dick into the world? Obviously I do not place myself with any of the above mentioned, but if artists of that quality could not find their way into public awareness and/or acclaim, why should I feel neglected, left by the road, or lost? For me, it inspires greater effort and purer devotion to who I am as a writer.
At some point I decided to spend less time on marketing my stories and more time on writing. In 1998 I got one dry acceptance letter from The Kenyon Review. The cold acceptance felt less exciting than some of the personal rejection letters, but it did make me realize I might be a good writer. Nonetheless, rejections kept coming. I didn't have the time or the energy to send out 100 submissions to get 1 acceptance. In my 70s, when my writing slowed down, I decided to focus on marketing. Last year I published my first book (took 37 years to write). In 2025 my second book will be published (only 20 years.) I'm looking ahead to 2028 for my third book, when I will be 83. My fourth, at 85. There are a few more manuscripts 80% finished on the bookshelf. Here's the secret: stay healthy, do not succumb to a doctor-centered life, sing, dance, love, floss. That will bring success, book or no book.
Try not to get discouraged by how looping and twisty the process is. That can be hard sometimes. From the standpoint of efficiency and expediency a path with a winding almost mazelike quality has got some real drawbacks. But there are other ways to look at a winding, circuitous path. Taking a winding path through a book store, for example, is a delight. I don’t want to get in and get out. Same with a walk through a beautiful space. I’m not trying to escape that space, not trying to find the quickest way to the end. I’m trying to take in as much as I can. People usually don’t go to a museum and consciously see how fast they can get through it. But it’s only natural to want an efficient, expedient path to success.
We all have a desire to feel a sense of accomplishment, but left unchecked that can lead to a particular outlook on the creative process which is unhelpful. It can lead to an overemphasis on reaching the end. The mind gets focused on the gap between the present location and the finishline, that moment where a story manages to make other people see something true about life in it or manages to thoroughly entertain them.
Delight and wonderment are different. They’re really useful on a circuitous path, because they help open us up to the twists and turns of creating. Our stories and our careers, whatever they eventually will turn out to be, are going to resemble various other things on the way. And we will have to learn to at least accept, if not like, each one of those incohate forms the story or the career will be in if we’re ever going to improve things. There is a way of seeing a piece of writing (and a career) that is generous and patient enough to allow it the awkward phases it needs, in order to become what it is to be. That’s what I try to keep in mind because, in my experience, I’ve found it helps.
Hi Story Clubbers, may I share my story? This question and George's answer resonate strongly. (As do many of the responses.)
I always wanted to be a writer. At about 30 I dedicated myself to it. All in. I wanted success and fame. To be known as a good writer. Quickly I started getting published in my home country. A collection followed and a novel. To good reviews. A film deal. Tacit 'approval'. But the novel was written under personal pressure to produce, to publish a novel. Make my name! Both were 'ok', but forced. I got disillusioned (long story). Life also took me away and I stopped writing for 15-odd years to have a family, start a business.
A few years back I started writing again. A couple of 'warm up' not very good stories. I'm working on a novel. I don't think anyone will buy my book. Maybe. I'm trying to place my personal bar high. But I don't care either way. I've realised that I'm fulfilled when I writing. I am happy (and frustrated blah, blah, but happy.) I can spend hours, days working on getting a passage right and don't feel like I'm wasting my time, my life. Which is a feeling I've had making money in business or doing other work in general. (That, what's the point of this beyond the hollowness of money?, feeling.)
Recently I applied for the Granta Short Story Writing course (on-line). Sent my bio and excerpt. I couldn't even get on that. Maybe I'm too old, too published or maybe the excerpt just wasn't good enough. Who knows? Who cares? (After the mandatory 24-48 sting of rejection period had passed.)You have to find value in what you do. And decide if you like what you do.
To the questioner, holding aside the idea of sending the right story to the right publication, you should have an idea, a belief whether they are 'good enough'. Especially on cold reading of your work six months or a year later when you are no longer as invested. If you do like them, if they achieved or got close to achieving what you set out to do, are sure they are 'good enough', then screw whatever anyone else thinks, because the person you need to please is you. Because if you're not writing for you, if you're writing for someone else or their fickle approval, all is lost. And it's no longer art. It's commerce. And that is entirely different. (imho)
I don’t know your age, but if older than 35, I do recommend checking the age of the readers (not always readily available) and editors. I hate to sound reverse-ageist but it does matter. We are living in a social-media induced coma, a pseudo awareness. In such a state it’s hard for someone inexperienced (in life and/ or imagination) to relate to a story that’s not familiar to their sensibilities.
Additionally, I don’t know your location. If American, I recommend checking out journals and small presses in Ireland and U.K.; especially agents who are open to international writers.
Finally, there are many pieces of writing out there which make one wonder—how the heck did this ever get published? The inverse of that is also true: there are many excellent stories that don’t see the light of day until it is their time. Sometimes not in our lifetime. Keep writing & keep submitting. If writing is in your bones, there is no alternative but to keep going. :)
Also: read Stephen Marche's essay called On Writing and Failure. Tiny book. A yearly booster.
To the person asking the question, rejection and success are not black and white. Are you getting more “higher tier” rejections than before, where editors say they enjoyed your work and ask to see more of it? If so, that is progress. Are your rejections taking longer than average at the litmags where you submit? If so, it may be because they are going up the review chain before being rejected, which is a good sign. Maybe I am grasping at straws, but I tend to look for such trends in my own submissions.
Also, there is a definite ladder of litmags and it may not be a good idea to start your submissions at the very top. Start humble and work on building your way up.
It might be helpful (or not..) to know that a feeling of succes is never a given - not even when your work has been published, received critical acclaim and been translated into other languages than your own (and yes, I speak from experience here). What I try to think about at those insecure moments, is literature as a choir - what really matters in the end is the quality of that choir to which your voice contributes, and whether you’ve done your utmost to enrich the sound of its song, in your own small way, and even if just for a few readers.
oh, wow, said so much better than what i just now tried to say in my post.
Hi Wytske,
I’m so happy to see you here! We have been emailing about my manuscript years ago and your help and advice was very valuable to me. And of course I have read your books and they mean a lot to me. One in particular has helped me a lot, you probably know which one.
Mijn boek komt volgend jaar uit bij Thomas Rap! Ik weet niet of je je mij nog herinnert hoor, haha. Het is al jaren geleden dat we contact hadden.
Wytske, your "choir" metaphor here evokes for me the poet Gregory Orr's powerful meditation in his essay "The Given," about "The Book that is the resurrection of the body of the beloved, which is the world." In Orr's words, the "Book" is a secular/spiritual "giant anthology of poems and songs that has been gathering itself since human consciousness could be recorded in language." It is the story of humanity; everything ever written is a part of a greater whole, a collective of work which explores "every dimension of what it is to be human...this imagined 'book' is a dynamic repository of expressive forms that tells humanity’s stories." Everything we write whether published or not, is a contribution to this great collective work, this choir of voices.
Beautifully said. Agree.
This was so beautiful that I had to write it out for myself to make sure that I remember it for my own insecure moments when I can't remember why in the world I'm singing or trying to find the best words to my own song.
Love this! Yes. So beautiful put.
Questioner:
Your work is probably excellent--maybe not to everyone, but to certain readers out there. (Not everyone likes everything.) I think it's crazy hard to find an agent these days (as George has pointed out). The fact you've not published most likely does NOT mean your work sucks. It probably means you have to keep sending out. The gatekeepers are just people with opinions. They come and go. One day, someone's opinion will be that they love your story.
Keep sending out. You can also start your own substack RIGHT HERE and post stories! And people will read them!
This is the most obvious advice but, you know, keep writing as long as you continue to love doing so. The more you write, the better of a writer you will be. Keep sending your stuff out to the kinds of places that publish the kinds of stories you write. And, obviously, too, keep reading. I want to say that it will happen--you will be discovered. But there are so many smart and great writers out there. Who knows if you will rise to the top of some slush pile being read by someone on summer break from Swarthmore??
You never know. That's the truth. You just never know. I may be in line next year hoping for your autograph. Or you may be self-publishing 100 copies and giving them away to friends.
It's hard to not get depressed, I know. But remember all of the writers out there who are exactly like you--toiling away in obscurity. You are a member of a wonderful group! The sensitive, attentive, beautiful people!
There was a time when there was nothing I wanted more in this world than to be published. It meant EVERYTHING to me. Then I had a story published. Then a novel. and another one. And guess what? Nobody cares! It's just a thing I say when someone asks me what I do. "I'm a writer," I say. "Have you written anything I may have read?" they ask. "No," i say. (And then I shout inside my head, fuck you.)
Get this: I have given away FOR FREE my books to people as presents. And GUESS WHAT? They don't read them! Hahahahhahaha!!!
(Thank you to anyone who has read my books. I love you.)
At this moment, I've got lots of little stories on my computer. i have a novel I'm revising. It will probably never get published because it's what I'd consider unconventional and I doubt anyone would consider it a book that would make money for a publishing house. Oh, well. It's what i'm writing.
So, i guess that's my bottom line to you. Keep writing if you want to, if you love it, if it's what you end up doing even when you think you quit last week. (Oh, there's a pen in my hand? Fancy that! I guess I'm still writing!) I really, really, really hope you get published. It did help my ego when it happened. I could think, okay, I did it. And then i could calm down about it. So i hope it happens to you. But if not, don't forget that you are still a writer (because you write!). Put everything in drawers and files for that day you're discovered. Hoping for the best for you!!!
i know this was no help, but I tried. xo
I found your advice to be helpful. I've been submitting to lit mags for months in hopes of finally getting a story published (it'd be my first). The sorrow I feel every time I recieve a rejection has made me almost quit writing so many times. The people around me believe that an unpublished writer isn't a 'real' writer; they think it's a waste of time for me to even bother writing if I'm not good enough to get a story published.
Getting something published wouldn't be life-changing in terms of kickstarting a profitable writing career, but I'd finally feel validated and like a 'real' writer. That would be enough for me.
Those people around you who you mention--I don't know who they are, but I can tell you with 100% confidence that they are absolutely dead wrong. You are a writer. And it is not a waste of time for you to write. Welcome to the community of your people--we who write because we love words and sentences. You are an esteemed member! I do hope that one day some lit mag will publish you, because I know how important that feels. But nothing changes the fact of who you are: a person who pays attention, who sees, who thinks, who feels the spirit inside of you. I understand the sorrow that comes with rejection. Tell yourself you are a baseball player--think of the thousands of times they strike out! The great Roger Federer (tennis) was a true champion, and even he won just 54% of the points he played. Just a bit over half. And he was the best ever! We all must deal with failure, though it hurts and hurts. I am validating you! You are a writer!
I needed to hear that. Thank you.
xo
Keep sending those writings out. It took me 5 years to get the late Michael Curtis, former editor of the Atlantic Monthly, to take one of my stories. But he did.
Some of my nicest rejection letters were from MC. He was such a wonderful editor.
I've gotten so many rejections I just don't think it bothers me as much any more. Today I got a rejection for a piece I emailed yesterday afternoon, less than 24-hours. On the other hand, getting published, it's not life-changing, but when I did get a piece published earlier this year, for a few hours I was totally on cloud nine. Having a story published on a non-paying internet site. It's worth all the rejections. Like you, I don't care about making a profitable writing career, but just want to have stuff out there, being read... Also, don't liste3n to those people around you. Tell them you are a "real" writer, but not quite yet an "author."
Thanks Rob I will try this.
ROLF, not Rob.
ok - I was stressed from just thinking about putting my essays into a book form. Who would read it but I loved writing them . A name is very im;portan so Rolf accept my apologies. Gloria
Beautiful advice Mary! And I will read anything you write!
xoxoxoxo
What Imola said so beautifully.
Thank you, Mary.
This is so funny...and true. Finally, at an age that shall not be revealed, I have decided to devote myself fully to writing and I have become what I believe I can call a writer. And...nobody cares! But if I were to be published...would "they" care then?....Probably not! But if my story should wind up in the hands of someone who would want to read it and be entertained and moved by it, all my work would be worth it. Anyway, that's what I tell myself when I go into my dark moods, trying to finish my 5 pounds and 540 page wonder. Hard copy in the file drawer and blowing up my vintage iMac with its evergrowing awesome mega bytes of space, just waiting to be...finished!
Hurray for the Unconventional!! What I like about Substack is that there are no Gatekeepers. No one calculating how much a manuscript is worth in dollars. People who write here are people who believe they have something important to say. Yesterday I read the Substack writers whose opinions I trusted instead of newspapers because I believe those writers answer only to themselves and to no editorial board. I too encourage you, Questioner, (and you too, mary g.) to publish one chapter of your book at a time on Substack and to join the choir and "enrich the sound of its song, in your own small way, and even if just for a few readers," as Wytske Versteeg says so elegantly.
So true and so encouraging.
Hahaha. Good work Mary I appreciate the effort in that reply and it was funny. X
Thanks, J.D.A!
The past year has been really interesting for me as a writer. After 5 failed attempts, I won 2 writing grants at the same time! This meant I could finally dedicate my time to writing full time. I’m writing a book about a really heavy subject (domestic abuse) and yet, bizarrely, I’m loving the writing process!!! Every day when I rise to write I feel like the luckiest damn girl in the world. I’m hardly making a fortune, but I’m raising two extraordinary girls as a single mother and am feeling empowered and full of purpose. As for publishing… everything I submitted to literary magazines in 2023 and so far in 2024 have been rejected. Everything. Some of those rejected poems I posted here on Substack and received the most incredible comments for, from complete strangers!! So, it’s nice to know I don’t completely suck. And I have a very experimental memoir that I queried agents with, to no success. I can’t stop writing, because it would be like trying to stop to breathe. So, I guess I’m stuck… My long way of saying, you’re not alone. Don’t give up. Don’t stop writing. Publish here on Substack.
So happy for you re: those grants! And some of us look VERY forward to that experimental memoir which I know will come out one of these days!
You’re the best Mary! Thank you for having faith in me:)
Congratulations! That's fantastic. Keep breathing!
I’m not sure if it really helps my writing, but I tend to turn to reading and sewing. The reading might be an obvious thing because it’s connected to writing, but sewing easy projects that are pretty and mindless just relaxes me and I can come up with new ideas. I think other people may have some kind of craft work that they do for similar reasons and find it helpful. Perhaps others are familiar with the Grace Paley poem about baking a pie instead of writing a poem because the pie will find an appreciative audience. It’s Inter-work.
Victoria! I'm an insane crafter, so I totally get this. And when i'm working with my hands, there's all kinds of stuff going through my head.
Crafter? Yes. Insane? No.
Half time? Score draw: 1:1.
Jury out? Yes. Directed by Judge to determine their verdict: "Mary G; Write or Wrong?"
😅 Wow! Me and My Buddies are, no way, swanning-walkies down some notional avenue. We'm wants to know: Mary G. Guilty for being an insane crafter, self-confessed, or Not Guilty?
Story Clubbers how do you find The Accused?
Guilty as usual, yer honour. If not of that, then something else. There's always something else, even if we don't know what it is.
I'd like to take this opportunity to state that lack of success brings special punishment in the form of guilt. Not just disappointment. Beat yourself up about you didn't work hard enough, you obstinately pluffed* the wrong furrow, you disappointed other people who were backing you, and on and on.
Yet writers are not born masochists. Keep writing is the only answer. Watch those neural networks light up when ideas come from the back of beyond. Keep doing it.
* "pluffed" is new official non-US spelling of US "plowed". How else do you pronounce "rough"?
"ruff"? or as the little barking dog puts it "ruff... ruff..."?
That's tuff.
my HS autograph book is filled with comments that all end in "Ruf!" I have no idea why. One person wrote 'rough' but someone else crossed it out and wrote 'ruf.'
Ha that’s great. I love baking a pie. I make a sugarless apple one and people crave it. It was a combo of the Pandemic, trying to quit sugar and being in a hurry. The apples are canned, but they’re the right canned apples, only one type I found worked, they naturally sweetened up just enough, when baked, the pastry is bought, sugarless, it was in the freezer and I thought what the heck. I only like one type with it, but I’ve only tried like three. Then I serve it with this yoghurt, but it has to be the right, pot set, Greek yoghurt, which is tart enough but sweet enough and so creamy, that it rockets the pie to a mouthwatering surprise. That one starts to crave. Haven’t made it in ages, since everyone went gluten free
I'd like to order one of you pies, please.
Victoria: could you be just the story-stitch-maker that I've been hoping to run across for so many years of my fast passing life?
It's not primarily, I'm increasingly realising, about the techniques of the craft (whatever that is) but about the truth of storytelling (which we've only to read pieces penned by George (and signposted by George to some salient works of significant others) that is the insightful truth is THE singular truth at the heart of short fiction.
Yes! Pie baking!
🥧 😁
Many writers knit, as well as bake. Others garden or cut hair. It's boring just to use our hands for writing. They are such amazing tools.
Regarding the first part of the question: "Is there any way we can tell the differences ourselves?"
I recently watched the wonderful documentary "In Restless Dreams: The Music of Paul Simon." In it, Simon working on a new album and explains his revision process as, "The ear goes to the irritant." This is such a great, pithy way of thinking about revision, that I think lines up perfectly with the kinds of things George has said about his revision process.
So, something I've noticed with my own writing, is that I will have a story that I think is done, but then when I think about it, my mind will involuntarily go to the part or aspect of the story that bothers me the most. The ear goes to the irritant. The things that draw my attention the most are generally the things that need fixing.
I've had some stories that have been rejected multiple times, and so I re-read them to figure out what's wrong with them, but end up thinking, "This story still does exactly what I want it to do." No irritant there. So I keep sending it out. Some of these stories were eventually published. With some others I eventually realize there *is* something that bothers me about them, and put them back in my Work in Progress folder.
Rejection sucks. It sometimes makes me wonder why I bother. But it also makes my stories better.
“The ear goes to the irritant” is exactly right from my experience. Thank you, Paul Simon and David Hammond. The more writing I have done the truer Simon’s maxim has seemed. And I think George’s notion of The Swerve is also worth thinking about. It has worked well for me, at least (recently I tried putting a short essay into stanzas instead, which allowed me reorder its elements, toss some, fine-tune others, and make it altogether more entertaining. At least to me. No, it hasn’t found a home, but at least I like it way better and the irritants are no longer raising a ruckus). Questioner, there is so much good advice from others in this thread. Keep working. Try the small presses. Find a class or start a writing group. Several small presses will also critique your work for an additional fee. Hang in here with Story Club, possibly the best writing class on the planet, and trust your ear (which listens twice as hard when you read your work aloud to yourself or your dog). All best luck to you!
Love that Paul Simon quote. I find him an amazing songwriter.
Story of my life. I published a story in the Atlantic Monthly back when I was starting my career as a professor of creative writing. I had an agent and a book that got reviews and came out in a paperback edition. BUT the book didn't sell enough copies to support an agent and justify an editor accepting my second book, so I was quickly yesterday's news. In fact, when I asked the same reviewers who loved my first book why they wouldn't review my second book--published at a very small press--one said a second book is just not news. Fifteen or so years later, I changed my name. Authenticity had a lot to do with it. I had used my husband's surname for those early publications, and I was aware that the first name on those books, my nickname, sounded male, the surname is Indian. I've had a little bit of success lately with my real name, but I'm no longer young, no longer ambiguous in gender and ethnicity and no longer interesting. I don't think wanting to be noticed means quite as much to me as wanting to write what runs through my head, and it makes perfect sense to me that not all readers are going to want to read what I write, especially since I have always been writing against my culture and probably also my time. So I guess it's worth remembering that success does not come to all of us all of the time, and that's okay. That's a particular path. What I've done in response to rejection is make sure my work is always under consideration somewhere, to "court" those editors who were kind enough to send me encouraging notes, and to keep writing. I would still write, as long as I had the materials, no matter who reads my writing or who likes it. It's a means of expression. There will not always be people to listen. But I still want to sing.
Thanks for sharing Roberta!
Mmm. Well. I started an online mag (with a friend) to try and create a space in the world where I get to read more of what I love so I don’t feel so outsidery. First issue out in September. IMMENSELY exciting to find some top notch writing that really excites me (it’s called Neither Fish Nor Foul - to give you a flavour of our vibe and also as a teeny tiny plug for us). Also very useful to sit on the other side of the desk and articulate why a piece won’t be in the next edition. So far it isn’t that they are terrible - they just don’t feel fully realised yet.
For context, I do get published and have been placed in comps and nominated and all that. (I write flash and short stories). I also get turned down flat. I don’t submit much because I don’t finish stuff very fast and now I have a few writing years under my belt I know not to send a piece out just because I made a thing. Now I keep at it until it feels like a good thing. Then if people turn it down, I am confident it’s just a bad match, not a bad story.
Can you post a link to your online mag?
https://www.neitherfishnorfoul.com/
I was hesitant to post as I don’t want to use the forum as a marketing tool (not that any money will exchange hands, we can only offer our time at the moment).
I feel like I taught myself to write by joining workshops I paid to be in (One Story, there are lots of them out there, with brilliant instructors) and whenever possible asking other writers to be in weekly workshops where we read each others work. Sometimes I asked other writers from those workshops, sometimes I found other people looking to join through word of mouth. Sometimes I talked people into it. So I had lots and lots of people reading my work and commenting on it. Sometimes that can be insanely frustrating -- but you do get a sense of how people feel about the work, you can see where you lost their interest, you can see what gets them excited. And over several years, getting feedback on everything I wrote, I started to figure things out, and was able to answer the questions you're asking much better. It can be painful when no one likes what you've written, but not as painful as fifty rejections from Lit mags, while giving you no feedback on why it wasn't taken. You may not learn what's good or not good from a workshop, but you will definitely learn what your readers are thinking!
Yes agree. I have done a similar route to get a real world sense of my work.
Susan, this is really helpful, yes. Getting feedback from anyone - but writers especially - is so crucial to understanding if our writing is making an impression
Most helpful answer I’ve seen!😎
Again, Story Club is helpful. I’m looking forward to the other comments.
I’ve twice given up writing fiction; in both cases it was because I was too sensitive to participate fully in the rejection process; the “me” in me was poached, not hard boiled. This time I am doing a novel, not stories, and my plan is to finish it, put it away, eat spinach and take cold baths, butch up and become the creature I must be in order to pilot the book to its final destination, be that buried on my hard drive, or a book store near you.
Part of the writing life I find meaningful and validating is being a literary citizen & attending local events where writers -- emerging or published -- read their work. Most events leave me renewed to keep writing. It helps to be in a big city but there are online communities. And I've joined workshops that meet me where I'm at, not trying to make me into a writer who already exists. I say all this because the first thing I do if I feel like I'm not getting anywhere with my writing is to connect with more writers, especially since I didn't do an MFA. Sometimes I'm asked to read my work, which is exciting & helpful for hearing how an audience receives it in real time. What drags, what gets laughs. Writing classes (at nonprofits) have also helped me over time (even taking classes bc of the teacher & being curious about how they translate their writing style or philosophy or methods to the classroom). Getting better at writing to be published also requires knowing what's being published & it helps to meet people who are doing just that. I don't mean meeting celebrity writers, even just writers a few steps ahead on the publishing journey from you. I've also learned of many small presses & local literary magazines this way. Writing might be solitary but a writing life doesn't have to be, even if you're not yet published.
To all of us that lament not finding a path to publish our work,
My little way in this is to recall how many books did Franz Kafka bring to market? How many paintings did Vincent Van Gogh sell in his life time? What happened to Herman Melville after he labored Moby Dick into the world? Obviously I do not place myself with any of the above mentioned, but if artists of that quality could not find their way into public awareness and/or acclaim, why should I feel neglected, left by the road, or lost? For me, it inspires greater effort and purer devotion to who I am as a writer.
At some point I decided to spend less time on marketing my stories and more time on writing. In 1998 I got one dry acceptance letter from The Kenyon Review. The cold acceptance felt less exciting than some of the personal rejection letters, but it did make me realize I might be a good writer. Nonetheless, rejections kept coming. I didn't have the time or the energy to send out 100 submissions to get 1 acceptance. In my 70s, when my writing slowed down, I decided to focus on marketing. Last year I published my first book (took 37 years to write). In 2025 my second book will be published (only 20 years.) I'm looking ahead to 2028 for my third book, when I will be 83. My fourth, at 85. There are a few more manuscripts 80% finished on the bookshelf. Here's the secret: stay healthy, do not succumb to a doctor-centered life, sing, dance, love, floss. That will bring success, book or no book.
Try not to get discouraged by how looping and twisty the process is. That can be hard sometimes. From the standpoint of efficiency and expediency a path with a winding almost mazelike quality has got some real drawbacks. But there are other ways to look at a winding, circuitous path. Taking a winding path through a book store, for example, is a delight. I don’t want to get in and get out. Same with a walk through a beautiful space. I’m not trying to escape that space, not trying to find the quickest way to the end. I’m trying to take in as much as I can. People usually don’t go to a museum and consciously see how fast they can get through it. But it’s only natural to want an efficient, expedient path to success.
We all have a desire to feel a sense of accomplishment, but left unchecked that can lead to a particular outlook on the creative process which is unhelpful. It can lead to an overemphasis on reaching the end. The mind gets focused on the gap between the present location and the finishline, that moment where a story manages to make other people see something true about life in it or manages to thoroughly entertain them.
Delight and wonderment are different. They’re really useful on a circuitous path, because they help open us up to the twists and turns of creating. Our stories and our careers, whatever they eventually will turn out to be, are going to resemble various other things on the way. And we will have to learn to at least accept, if not like, each one of those incohate forms the story or the career will be in if we’re ever going to improve things. There is a way of seeing a piece of writing (and a career) that is generous and patient enough to allow it the awkward phases it needs, in order to become what it is to be. That’s what I try to keep in mind because, in my experience, I’ve found it helps.
So well put, Elliot. Wandering and wondering together. Beautiful.
Hi Story Clubbers, may I share my story? This question and George's answer resonate strongly. (As do many of the responses.)
I always wanted to be a writer. At about 30 I dedicated myself to it. All in. I wanted success and fame. To be known as a good writer. Quickly I started getting published in my home country. A collection followed and a novel. To good reviews. A film deal. Tacit 'approval'. But the novel was written under personal pressure to produce, to publish a novel. Make my name! Both were 'ok', but forced. I got disillusioned (long story). Life also took me away and I stopped writing for 15-odd years to have a family, start a business.
A few years back I started writing again. A couple of 'warm up' not very good stories. I'm working on a novel. I don't think anyone will buy my book. Maybe. I'm trying to place my personal bar high. But I don't care either way. I've realised that I'm fulfilled when I writing. I am happy (and frustrated blah, blah, but happy.) I can spend hours, days working on getting a passage right and don't feel like I'm wasting my time, my life. Which is a feeling I've had making money in business or doing other work in general. (That, what's the point of this beyond the hollowness of money?, feeling.)
Recently I applied for the Granta Short Story Writing course (on-line). Sent my bio and excerpt. I couldn't even get on that. Maybe I'm too old, too published or maybe the excerpt just wasn't good enough. Who knows? Who cares? (After the mandatory 24-48 sting of rejection period had passed.)You have to find value in what you do. And decide if you like what you do.
To the questioner, holding aside the idea of sending the right story to the right publication, you should have an idea, a belief whether they are 'good enough'. Especially on cold reading of your work six months or a year later when you are no longer as invested. If you do like them, if they achieved or got close to achieving what you set out to do, are sure they are 'good enough', then screw whatever anyone else thinks, because the person you need to please is you. Because if you're not writing for you, if you're writing for someone else or their fickle approval, all is lost. And it's no longer art. It's commerce. And that is entirely different. (imho)
Dear Questioner,
I don’t know your age, but if older than 35, I do recommend checking the age of the readers (not always readily available) and editors. I hate to sound reverse-ageist but it does matter. We are living in a social-media induced coma, a pseudo awareness. In such a state it’s hard for someone inexperienced (in life and/ or imagination) to relate to a story that’s not familiar to their sensibilities.
Additionally, I don’t know your location. If American, I recommend checking out journals and small presses in Ireland and U.K.; especially agents who are open to international writers.
Finally, there are many pieces of writing out there which make one wonder—how the heck did this ever get published? The inverse of that is also true: there are many excellent stories that don’t see the light of day until it is their time. Sometimes not in our lifetime. Keep writing & keep submitting. If writing is in your bones, there is no alternative but to keep going. :)
Also: read Stephen Marche's essay called On Writing and Failure. Tiny book. A yearly booster.
Very true!
To the person asking the question, rejection and success are not black and white. Are you getting more “higher tier” rejections than before, where editors say they enjoyed your work and ask to see more of it? If so, that is progress. Are your rejections taking longer than average at the litmags where you submit? If so, it may be because they are going up the review chain before being rejected, which is a good sign. Maybe I am grasping at straws, but I tend to look for such trends in my own submissions.
Also, there is a definite ladder of litmags and it may not be a good idea to start your submissions at the very top. Start humble and work on building your way up.
Play violin not pay Colin