The questioner asks this: “How can I be a more generous, helpful, honest, humble reader of other writers’ work-in-progress?” What a great question.
I am repeating myself from earlier posts on this same subject, but one tact I have taken is to tell the writer the things I’ve "noticed" in their piece. This removes the element of judgment. I…
The questioner asks this: “How can I be a more generous, helpful, honest, humble reader of other writers’ work-in-progress?” What a great question.
I am repeating myself from earlier posts on this same subject, but one tact I have taken is to tell the writer the things I’ve "noticed" in their piece. This removes the element of judgment. It's simply a recounting of what was noticed. This is similar to George’s color scheme, but I think it goes further than simply pointing out when the energy has gone south, or when I’ve been confused. A person can notice, for instance, that tension is building in the last third of a story, or that there seems to be no tension in the first third. A person can notice that the story seems to be about Jack and then seems to be about Jack’s wife. A person can notice that the ending came and it felt very sudden. A person can notice that they are reading breathlessly, because the plot is so compelling. Or that they lost track of things because their mind started to wander on page two. And on and on. In a workshop situation, if several people all “noticed” the same thing, that gives some very good feedback to the writer. If five out of eight people didn’t understand something, well, then, a writer would probably want to take a second look at that element.
Another strategy is to ask the writer specifically what it is they hope to know. Do they want you to tell them what you think the story is “about”? Do they want to know if the ending works? Do they want to know if or where you lost interest? Do they want to know if the voice is okay—or is it too charming or smarmy or whatever? Do they want a plot analysis? Responding specifically to what a writer wants takes off a lot of the pressure to respond ‘correctly.’ By following this tact, you can read a story you think is poorly written and not have to say, “this is poorly written.” You can just say, “you asked me if I got confused anywhere in the story, and no, I never did. Good job on that!”
In my files, I have these ideas written down for use when commenting on stories:
Say it's your opinion. Use: “I'm not sure but," "you might consider," "have you thought about," "another idea could be," "possibly," "maybe,"... "I felt ..." "It didn't work for me when ..." "I thought it would work better for me if..." "I'm not sure but ..." "Perhaps ..." "It strikes me that ..." "Maybe ..." "I didn't care for ..."
Mary, this is, as usual, great advice for you, offered so generously. Thanks. It brings up a question for me, or shall I say, I noticed that....I thought about peer reviews in my design profession. While I appreciate the consideration and gentleness of a careful critique, I also crave the knowledgable, hard edged, to the point comments of an another pro. "The entrance to the building is too constricted" vs. "Have you thought about whether you might have sort of wanted the entrance to, you know, be a little bigger or more inviting?" Just curious here what you and others think. I am always in favor of compassion and empathy, but I'm also a bit tired of the how sensitive everyone has become to any sort of discomfort. I think the fear of triggering has dumbed down a lot of useful, incisive critique. Again, not arguing in favor of being an asshole, just lamenting the loss of hard stones that can sharpen a blade to a razor's edge.
Kurt, I definitely give stronger critiques to certain writers who want that level of input, and who won't be hurt by it or angry at me. (Still, I do always ask what they're looking for when they ask me to read--and i stick to answering that.) Personally, I depend on several people to be brutally honest with me--people who are writers themselves, with opinions that I trust. Workshops are another matter entirely. It may be the first time a person ever shared their work. So you have to err on the side of gentleness. You have to "meet them where they are." I don't attend workshops anymore. I'm not a believer in sharing work in progress. Only finished drafts--and then only with my usual readers. And I'm not a fan of the model itself. I don't think I've ever had a piece improve after it's been workshopped by a group! That being said, many people get a lot out of them.
Makes perfect sense. The workshop is a tentative environment. The close friends and like minded pros things is different. It's fastball, while workshops are maybe softball?
Well, the workshop method definitely works for a lot of people. I'm sure the extremely talented students in George's workshops at Syracuse learn a ton. But they have the good fortune of being part of a cohort that includes some of the country's best emerging writers. Not to mention incredible instructors. So it really comes down to the workshop itself. Unless you're in a great program, attending a workshop is often kind of a crapshoot and can end up harming your writing and/or your motivation. So I've found my own methods to get feedback. Not sure if that's fastball vs softball, but I hope you get my point.
Mary! I just logged into Story Club for the first time in MONTHS, and I'm so happy to see some familiar faces are still here. Life has gotten in the way of making time for the Club, but I'm realizing I've been languishing a bit without it. I'm ready to jump back in!
(And I'm about to go see George on book tour here in Portland, so I'm thankful that came up to nudge me back over to this part of the internet.)
Sara! Nice to see you here again! Yes, people have come and gone, but good ol' mary g. remains..... It's been interesting to see the changes around here. Lots of the "regulars" have disappeared. Sometimes, I think it's time for me to hang it up and move on as well, but then George posts something interesting and I feel compelled to respond. I hope you get to say hello to him in person at Powell's. I think he lives here in LA most of the time now, so I have hopes of running into him one of these days. Happy you're back!
I’m in line to get my book signed now, so I’ll at least get to say a quick hello!
I was not joking about languishing since I’ve left Story Club. I do not recommend dropping off, dropping out, or otherwise leaving. It’s just the tonic needed to counteract all the terrible things and mean things and shallow things that make up so much of what we see each day.
I miss people who dropped off or maybe they're just lurking here. I did read a post by someone who said he began to have anxiety about posting here, about writing the wrong thing, or being taken the wrong way by someone.
Loved the Old Crew shout out Sea! I sometimes think there same thing. Have I stayed too long at this party? But, no way. It's just so good here, sharing, thinking, hangin' w/ the great GS and with you, Mary and the others. OMG. Too good. I'm not worthy.....
hahahaha! No worries! I always have a zillion errors because i hit post without re-reading. I think some of the old crew just needed a break maybe. From commenting. I get it. Sometimes it's more than enough to just read George's posts. For me, I can't really process ANYTHING without writing about it. So if i only read what George says, it goes right through my head--poof! No retention. But if I enter into the conversation, i retain it more easily. And by commenting, I can turn it over in my head and really ponder, which I love. But, yeah. Watching the regulars drop off can make me wonder what I'm still doing here--like maybe i should step aside and that would encourage others to comment...? I know that sometimes i basically "take over" around here--maybe that' s not always such a good thing. Not asking for any reply on my thoughts. I'm just processing. Like always. (And I do miss the old crew--they were so fun to interact with. Without meeting in person, I often feel/felt that i knew them in some way, you know? Old crew, if you're reading this: i miss you!)
Yeah, Old Crew! I don't think of your posts as "take over" because anyone can post anything, of any length, and we can chose to read or skim or not read at all.
A while back (Old Crew days) someone apologized for commenting, saying something like "English is my second language." I loved that person's post. Plus, they speak more than one language, so even better.
so many good people around here. I feel bad that anyone would think they need to apologize or worry about what they post. This is the Love Club! (Mostly.)
Thanks, Pips. I always adhere to my second tactic--of asking a writer what they want to know from me. It helps them, as well, to have to stop and think about that question. (I was once in a workshop where we were commenting on a short story. No one had told me that this was the writer's "final" draft. The writer was expecting comments that told her, yes, you've done it, it's ready. Well, I didn't know that! I thought it was a draft. And so i said what I thought, starting with the positive, as we always do, and then moving on toward where I thought the piece could use some work. The writer started weeping. And others, who had worked in previous workshops with this writer, were very angry. My comments weren't even negative--just the basic sorts of things you might say with a draft! I learned my lesson right there! Always ask what kind of comments are they looking for! That was a nightmare from well over a decade ago and i still haven't recovered!!!)
Hi, Mary. That sounds perfectly horrific as nightmares go. I've been thrown into a funk by commentary I've received but have yet to weep. Isn't one measure of our writerliness our ability to take a punch? When I weather a harsh critique and try to make something out of it, the results are usually good if not great. Once you've made that connection, all you want is a tougher hide and all it takes to develop a tougher hide is the wanting of it.
Oh, John, I still can't stand to think about it. It was so distressing. It was only much, much later that I realized the workshop leader shared at least some of the blame for the situation, as it was her job to be in charge of the group and let us know what the expectations were for workshopping. Unfortunately, the group turned on her as well. Honestly, it was pretty shocking. The thing is--I wasn't harsh! I didn't throw punches. I truly thought I was giving helpful feedback at the time. (I did contact the woman later and apologized and she said she understood where I was coming from. Still--I feel permanently scarred by the whole thing!)
Can you now amend the long-term effect from "scarred" to "reshaped" :-)? I was side swiped by "reality" once all too recently wherein—because it had to do with nothing less than the whole of my strategy to improve as a writer—I briefly felt like I was driven down a deep dark hole but when, about a month later, I came out of it, I had developed a whole new strategy to recover.
If only. No, I am scarred. It's something that plays over and over in my head--I think because i was so surprised by the whole thing. It left me shaken--that I had not perceived something going on in the moment; that i had not read the room properly. Or--worst of all--that perhaps I spoke with too much confidence, that i came off as a Miss-Know-It-All. And that perhaps I really was too full of myself in that workshop. I don't know. It's so far in the past now, it's time to give it up! But it has affected the way I respond to the work of others ever since, so I suppose that is an upside.
You're a know-a-heck-uv-a-lot. That makes you vulnerable :-).
I no longer suppose I can be in the writing business and avoid the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. It was very hard not to take this personally when this poop hit the fan:
It's a story describing how my whole recovery strategy from a spate of rejections was crushed in a cruel and unforeseen way. Double layered rejections? C'mon! It shook me a whole lot like what you describe. It put me in a nasty funk.
And then Story Club bailed me out. After George had us read Tillie Olsen, I found out that she launched her career with a Stegner Fellowship. So last year, I applied, fully aware of the prohibitive odds, blah-blah-blah, and this year applied again.
Applying for the Fellowship twice gave me an experience analogous to George's revelation about how workshops should treat stories as works-in-progress that may have many drafts ahead of them, even when the course and the workshops end.
So, I took joy in recruiting, Tom-Sawyer like, a small cadre of friends to critique my application this year, who encouraged me and helped me to tweak it into a better application than the last. I proposed working on an existing draft MS of a novel I've drafted several times which forced me to explain in less than 1000 words how I could make it better. I learned a surprising amount about the manuscript trying to make a good pitch. In this effort, the prospect of working on it again became new and exciting and fresh. I've started to wonder if I couldn't turn out a pretty engaging novel just by pitching the next draft of it each year to the Stegner fellowship admissions folks :-).
The questioner asks this: “How can I be a more generous, helpful, honest, humble reader of other writers’ work-in-progress?” What a great question.
I am repeating myself from earlier posts on this same subject, but one tact I have taken is to tell the writer the things I’ve "noticed" in their piece. This removes the element of judgment. It's simply a recounting of what was noticed. This is similar to George’s color scheme, but I think it goes further than simply pointing out when the energy has gone south, or when I’ve been confused. A person can notice, for instance, that tension is building in the last third of a story, or that there seems to be no tension in the first third. A person can notice that the story seems to be about Jack and then seems to be about Jack’s wife. A person can notice that the ending came and it felt very sudden. A person can notice that they are reading breathlessly, because the plot is so compelling. Or that they lost track of things because their mind started to wander on page two. And on and on. In a workshop situation, if several people all “noticed” the same thing, that gives some very good feedback to the writer. If five out of eight people didn’t understand something, well, then, a writer would probably want to take a second look at that element.
Another strategy is to ask the writer specifically what it is they hope to know. Do they want you to tell them what you think the story is “about”? Do they want to know if the ending works? Do they want to know if or where you lost interest? Do they want to know if the voice is okay—or is it too charming or smarmy or whatever? Do they want a plot analysis? Responding specifically to what a writer wants takes off a lot of the pressure to respond ‘correctly.’ By following this tact, you can read a story you think is poorly written and not have to say, “this is poorly written.” You can just say, “you asked me if I got confused anywhere in the story, and no, I never did. Good job on that!”
In my files, I have these ideas written down for use when commenting on stories:
Say it's your opinion. Use: “I'm not sure but," "you might consider," "have you thought about," "another idea could be," "possibly," "maybe,"... "I felt ..." "It didn't work for me when ..." "I thought it would work better for me if..." "I'm not sure but ..." "Perhaps ..." "It strikes me that ..." "Maybe ..." "I didn't care for ..."
Mary, this is, as usual, great advice for you, offered so generously. Thanks. It brings up a question for me, or shall I say, I noticed that....I thought about peer reviews in my design profession. While I appreciate the consideration and gentleness of a careful critique, I also crave the knowledgable, hard edged, to the point comments of an another pro. "The entrance to the building is too constricted" vs. "Have you thought about whether you might have sort of wanted the entrance to, you know, be a little bigger or more inviting?" Just curious here what you and others think. I am always in favor of compassion and empathy, but I'm also a bit tired of the how sensitive everyone has become to any sort of discomfort. I think the fear of triggering has dumbed down a lot of useful, incisive critique. Again, not arguing in favor of being an asshole, just lamenting the loss of hard stones that can sharpen a blade to a razor's edge.
Kurt, I definitely give stronger critiques to certain writers who want that level of input, and who won't be hurt by it or angry at me. (Still, I do always ask what they're looking for when they ask me to read--and i stick to answering that.) Personally, I depend on several people to be brutally honest with me--people who are writers themselves, with opinions that I trust. Workshops are another matter entirely. It may be the first time a person ever shared their work. So you have to err on the side of gentleness. You have to "meet them where they are." I don't attend workshops anymore. I'm not a believer in sharing work in progress. Only finished drafts--and then only with my usual readers. And I'm not a fan of the model itself. I don't think I've ever had a piece improve after it's been workshopped by a group! That being said, many people get a lot out of them.
Makes perfect sense. The workshop is a tentative environment. The close friends and like minded pros things is different. It's fastball, while workshops are maybe softball?
Well, the workshop method definitely works for a lot of people. I'm sure the extremely talented students in George's workshops at Syracuse learn a ton. But they have the good fortune of being part of a cohort that includes some of the country's best emerging writers. Not to mention incredible instructors. So it really comes down to the workshop itself. Unless you're in a great program, attending a workshop is often kind of a crapshoot and can end up harming your writing and/or your motivation. So I've found my own methods to get feedback. Not sure if that's fastball vs softball, but I hope you get my point.
All great points. Thanks!
Genial Mary, simply, honestly, purely genial.
Thank you.
Thank you, Rob!
Mary! I just logged into Story Club for the first time in MONTHS, and I'm so happy to see some familiar faces are still here. Life has gotten in the way of making time for the Club, but I'm realizing I've been languishing a bit without it. I'm ready to jump back in!
(And I'm about to go see George on book tour here in Portland, so I'm thankful that came up to nudge me back over to this part of the internet.)
Sara! Nice to see you here again! Yes, people have come and gone, but good ol' mary g. remains..... It's been interesting to see the changes around here. Lots of the "regulars" have disappeared. Sometimes, I think it's time for me to hang it up and move on as well, but then George posts something interesting and I feel compelled to respond. I hope you get to say hello to him in person at Powell's. I think he lives here in LA most of the time now, so I have hopes of running into him one of these days. Happy you're back!
I’m in line to get my book signed now, so I’ll at least get to say a quick hello!
I was not joking about languishing since I’ve left Story Club. I do not recommend dropping off, dropping out, or otherwise leaving. It’s just the tonic needed to counteract all the terrible things and mean things and shallow things that make up so much of what we see each day.
I’m going to try my best to keep up!
I miss people who dropped off or maybe they're just lurking here. I did read a post by someone who said he began to have anxiety about posting here, about writing the wrong thing, or being taken the wrong way by someone.
Now I have anxiety about my typos.
Loved the Old Crew shout out Sea! I sometimes think there same thing. Have I stayed too long at this party? But, no way. It's just so good here, sharing, thinking, hangin' w/ the great GS and with you, Mary and the others. OMG. Too good. I'm not worthy.....
It is OMG too good. Just read "The Jilting of Granny..." and came back here to see your comment.
hahahaha! No worries! I always have a zillion errors because i hit post without re-reading. I think some of the old crew just needed a break maybe. From commenting. I get it. Sometimes it's more than enough to just read George's posts. For me, I can't really process ANYTHING without writing about it. So if i only read what George says, it goes right through my head--poof! No retention. But if I enter into the conversation, i retain it more easily. And by commenting, I can turn it over in my head and really ponder, which I love. But, yeah. Watching the regulars drop off can make me wonder what I'm still doing here--like maybe i should step aside and that would encourage others to comment...? I know that sometimes i basically "take over" around here--maybe that' s not always such a good thing. Not asking for any reply on my thoughts. I'm just processing. Like always. (And I do miss the old crew--they were so fun to interact with. Without meeting in person, I often feel/felt that i knew them in some way, you know? Old crew, if you're reading this: i miss you!)
Yeah, Old Crew! I don't think of your posts as "take over" because anyone can post anything, of any length, and we can chose to read or skim or not read at all.
A while back (Old Crew days) someone apologized for commenting, saying something like "English is my second language." I loved that person's post. Plus, they speak more than one language, so even better.
so many good people around here. I feel bad that anyone would think they need to apologize or worry about what they post. This is the Love Club! (Mostly.)
I’m new to reading the comments. I am behind on everything. I hope you continue to comment, Mary G.
Thank you, Mary Ann.
Any sign of Manami around here these days? I hope she is still lurking, if not posting.
And I feel the same about feeling like I knew the Old Crew without actually knowing you guys. I have missed the camaraderie!
She comes and goes. I miss her!
Hi Sara! Good to see you again.
Yay! Hi!
So helpful, Mary G. Thank you.
I love this, Mary -- share what you notice, ask writers what they'd like to know. Terrific.
Thanks, Pips. I always adhere to my second tactic--of asking a writer what they want to know from me. It helps them, as well, to have to stop and think about that question. (I was once in a workshop where we were commenting on a short story. No one had told me that this was the writer's "final" draft. The writer was expecting comments that told her, yes, you've done it, it's ready. Well, I didn't know that! I thought it was a draft. And so i said what I thought, starting with the positive, as we always do, and then moving on toward where I thought the piece could use some work. The writer started weeping. And others, who had worked in previous workshops with this writer, were very angry. My comments weren't even negative--just the basic sorts of things you might say with a draft! I learned my lesson right there! Always ask what kind of comments are they looking for! That was a nightmare from well over a decade ago and i still haven't recovered!!!)
Oh man, sounds intense. I can see you meant well. I would've done the same, unless the writer asked for kid gloves. You sound like a sensitive reader.
Hi, Mary. That sounds perfectly horrific as nightmares go. I've been thrown into a funk by commentary I've received but have yet to weep. Isn't one measure of our writerliness our ability to take a punch? When I weather a harsh critique and try to make something out of it, the results are usually good if not great. Once you've made that connection, all you want is a tougher hide and all it takes to develop a tougher hide is the wanting of it.
Oh, John, I still can't stand to think about it. It was so distressing. It was only much, much later that I realized the workshop leader shared at least some of the blame for the situation, as it was her job to be in charge of the group and let us know what the expectations were for workshopping. Unfortunately, the group turned on her as well. Honestly, it was pretty shocking. The thing is--I wasn't harsh! I didn't throw punches. I truly thought I was giving helpful feedback at the time. (I did contact the woman later and apologized and she said she understood where I was coming from. Still--I feel permanently scarred by the whole thing!)
Can you now amend the long-term effect from "scarred" to "reshaped" :-)? I was side swiped by "reality" once all too recently wherein—because it had to do with nothing less than the whole of my strategy to improve as a writer—I briefly felt like I was driven down a deep dark hole but when, about a month later, I came out of it, I had developed a whole new strategy to recover.
If only. No, I am scarred. It's something that plays over and over in my head--I think because i was so surprised by the whole thing. It left me shaken--that I had not perceived something going on in the moment; that i had not read the room properly. Or--worst of all--that perhaps I spoke with too much confidence, that i came off as a Miss-Know-It-All. And that perhaps I really was too full of myself in that workshop. I don't know. It's so far in the past now, it's time to give it up! But it has affected the way I respond to the work of others ever since, so I suppose that is an upside.
Mary,
You're a know-a-heck-uv-a-lot. That makes you vulnerable :-).
I no longer suppose I can be in the writing business and avoid the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. It was very hard not to take this personally when this poop hit the fan:
https://johnpoplett.com/blog/2023/03/25/oversharers-delight-a-brave-and-beautiful-story/
It's a story describing how my whole recovery strategy from a spate of rejections was crushed in a cruel and unforeseen way. Double layered rejections? C'mon! It shook me a whole lot like what you describe. It put me in a nasty funk.
And then Story Club bailed me out. After George had us read Tillie Olsen, I found out that she launched her career with a Stegner Fellowship. So last year, I applied, fully aware of the prohibitive odds, blah-blah-blah, and this year applied again.
Applying for the Fellowship twice gave me an experience analogous to George's revelation about how workshops should treat stories as works-in-progress that may have many drafts ahead of them, even when the course and the workshops end.
So, I took joy in recruiting, Tom-Sawyer like, a small cadre of friends to critique my application this year, who encouraged me and helped me to tweak it into a better application than the last. I proposed working on an existing draft MS of a novel I've drafted several times which forced me to explain in less than 1000 words how I could make it better. I learned a surprising amount about the manuscript trying to make a good pitch. In this effort, the prospect of working on it again became new and exciting and fresh. I've started to wonder if I couldn't turn out a pretty engaging novel just by pitching the next draft of it each year to the Stegner fellowship admissions folks :-).
John
Ha! Well, good luck getting that fellowship. That would be wonderful!
P.S. - thank you!
It's all for the greater glory of Story Club!