Let us not forget the master of the literary pivot, Virginia Woolf, and I highly recommend either To the Lighthouse, or Mrs. Dalloway as examples. This is such a great conversation! But Woolf is a truly one of the first modernists to employ this technique of diving into individual psyches, one after the other. She usually uses some object, say a clock tower (like Big Ben) and then -- since her main characters are either all on various streets being given different views of the clock, or are sitting in their rooms hearing it chiming, the clock becomes the point of pivoting, and it allows her to enter into someone else's head who is either hearing or gazing at the clock, and as is usually the case in her writing, all characters converge physically at some point, such as at a dinner party or vacation house in the Hebrides. She would be a great, and classical, example of how to bring multiple personalities into the mix, and still remain in the third person or omniscient narrator. Just some thoughts from the sidelines today, but I couldn't help myself!
Mrs. Dalloway. Mrs Dalloway. Mrs.Dalloway. This person keeps coming up, and I have never read Mrs. Dalloway, and your mentioning Mrs. Dalloway just now reminded me again of Mrs. Dalloway, and I looked her up on my Amazon account because she sounded so familiar and yes, I ordered Mrs. Dalloway a week ago and she has been delivered and is sitting up in the laundry waiting patiently, or not, where packages are delivered. I will go soon and meet her and hope she's not too peeved being forgotten like this. Nor has he read To The Lighthouse, or anything by VW, for that matter, but he might now, and Mrs. Dalloway thinks this might be a good idea.
Well, Tod, the universe beckons. And it's sitting on the laundry, which may be apropos, actually. Since laundries are part of the feminine domain, and since Woolf often hangs out in quotidian environments such as laundries, it's hugely symbolic that you have left her there. I suspect she won't hold it against you. She is, you know, in full control, having bought those flowers herself.
But if you enjoy this little gem of a masterpiece, then you must keep going, and get to To the Lighthouse (my ur-text), as it's even better in my humble opinion. But everything and anything she wrote is beyond wonderful. You will have to come back and tell me how you found Mrs. Dalloway.
p.s. Has anyone ever told you that you resemble Cormac McCarthy? Or is it just me? (smile)
We called our Irish Terrier Mrs Dalloway. She's 11 now and in failing health but hanging in there, and goes on a short bouncy run every morning after emptying her bowels. (It's become an almost ritualistic highlight of the day.)
To Woolf: @Tod, if you're of the type who likes an occasional shorter read that doesn't require the leaps of fiction, I highly and heartily recommend Street Haunting, her essay about walking around London in search of a pencil. If I was posted to a desert island and was allowed to bring with me just a dozen pages, I might well choose these.
To The Lighthouse (which I've only managed to read once) was utterly transporting in ways that are impossible to explain. It's like it just washes over you and brings you fully alive and embodied into that time and place. No sentence seems to stand out (indeed many feel difficult in the moment) but the whole is mesmerizing.
I've got Mrs. Dalloway in my reading stack right now.. Just reading your and Nancy Miller's comments is probably going to move Mrs. D closer to the top of the stack.
I have To the Lilghthouse waiting too. Snuck a quick peak and it tried to pull me into the book right there on my way out the door. Keep an eye on that one
I read the question and what popped up in my mind is War and Peace. I don’t know how Tolstoy does it but he does and it’s magnificent.
And, to address the questioner—great question. Glad you are writing again. I concur with so much you said ,this is like the best workshop, college class, MFA class, writing group, master class rolled up in one. I feel so fortunate to have found my way here.
Yeah, also thinking of Tolstoy, but of his last novel, Resurrection.
There's an astonishing moment at the end of one chapter, about a third of the way through the book. Nearly all of the chapter has been from the POV of the main character, Nekhlyudov, as he navigates an elaborate dinner hosted by mother of the woman, Missy, who Nekhlyudov may potentially marry for political/social convenience. The dinner is simply a chance for the mother to vet Nekhlyudov as worthy (or not) of her daughter's hand. Missy herself is present, but we never get her POV or thoughts on the matter.
Until the last paragraph of the chapter. Here, Tolstoy presents not Missy thoughts on the possible marriage, but her thoughts on the inner character of Nekhlyudov himself. In a few short, sweet sentences, Tolstoy establishes that Missy already loves Nekhlyudov, and that her demeanor towards him is reflective of her belief that she already "considered him as her own." In this POV shift, Tolstoy not only immeasurably deepens one character (someone who, subconsciously, we wanted to hear from--how do you leave out the bride's POV?) but also establishes a conflict that will reverberate throughout the rest of the novel, that of love vs passion, and/or responsibility vs compulsion.
God I love Tolstoy too. I came late to him..but to T.S. Eliot who said “Dante and Shakespeare divide the world between them. There is no third” I kind of think maybe there is a third.
The POV passage that resonates with me in War and Peace is the death of Petya, the 16 year old younger brother of Nicolai:
"‘Hurrah-ah-ah!’ shouted Petya, and without pausing a moment, galloped to the place whence came the sound of firing and where the smoke was thickest.
A volley was heard, and some bullets whistled past, while others plashed against something. The Cossacks and Dolokhov galloped after Petya into the gateway of the courtyard. In the dense wavering smoke some of the French threw down their arms and ran out of the bushes to meet the Cossacks, while others ran down the hill towards the pond. Petya was galloping along the courtyard, but instead of holding the reins he waved both his arms about rapidly and strangely, slipping farther and farther to one side in his saddle. His horse, having galloped up to a campfire that was smouldering in the morning light, stopped suddenly, and Petya fell heavily on to the wet ground. The Cossacks saw that his arms and legs jerked rapidly though his head was quite motionless. A bullet had pierced his skull.
After speaking to the senior French officer, who came out of the house with a white handkerchief tied to his sword and announced that they surrendered, Dolokhov dismounted and went up to Petya, who lay motionless with outstretched arms.
‘Done for!’ he said with a frown, and went to the gate to meet Denisov who was riding towards him.
‘Killed?’ cried Denisov, recognising from a distance the unmistakably lifeless attitude – very familiar to him – in which Petya’s body was lying.
‘Done for!’ repeated Dolokhov, as if the utterance of these words afforded him pleasure, and he quickly went up to the prisoners, who were surrounded by Cossacks who had hurried up. ‘We won’t take them!’ he called out to Denisov.
Denisov did not reply, he rode up to Petya, dismounted, and with trembling hands turned towards himself the blood-stained, mud-bespattered face, which had already gone white.
‘I am used to something sweet. Raisins, fine ones … take them all!’ he recalled Petya’s words. And the Cossacks looked round in surprise at the sound, like the yelp of a dog, with which Denisov turned away, walked to the wattle fence, and seized hold of it.
Among the Russian prisoners rescued by Denisov and Dolokhov was Pierre Bezukhov."
I keep Replying and my dog keeps interrupting with a ball. So if this is the third half-reply, blame it on Mick Jagger (my dog). Just wanted to say I’m just now reading War and Peace. (Probably a Saunders influence.) I had no idea it was funny! And it does bop around, POV-wise.
I hope your Mick Jagger keeps playing well into his eighties too! I just read War and Peace recently. Don’t know why I resisted for so long. But I read “A Swim in the Pond” by George Saunders and finally my resistance broke down —I devoured W&P and all I can say is —When the student is ready the teacher arrives.
I read a chapter first thing each morning from the Prevear /Volokhonsky translation. So much French! And hoisting the book itself fulfills my weight-bearing exercise goals for the day.
Thanks so much for this! I have taught "Puppy" and, when I taught it for the first time, found that the internalization of Callie's perspective worked SO well on me that I was surprised with how harshly my students were judging her. I tried to point out that Marie, by certain lights, has her own, more expensive chain for her own troubled son: the video games, which keep him occupied without addressing any of his issues. But afterwards I wondered if I was engaging in excessive rationalization/relativism. In the same way, I judged Marie more harshly for abandoning the puppy (in the sense of not adopting it) than I judged Callie for literally abandoning it, to die, something Callie knowingly does (whereas Marie isn't thinking of that aspect, as instead she's thinking about her plan to unleash the State on Callie). Raises the question of the line between sympathy ("judge not Callie lest ye be judged, Marie") and condescension ("people like Callie can't help it but we of a better sort should know better") and whether in my reading I had lapsed more into the latter. Anyway, teaching it again this summer and excited to give more thought to all this!
I recently had this much written of an Office Hours question when this new Office Hours post appeared:
I am currently working on a novel that alternates between two main characters’ points of view. The project is in its nascent stages, so basic choices about tense and point of view for these two characters are looming large. I recently read Andres Dubus III's novel "House of Sand and Fog," which is told mainly from two different characters’ first person points of view—an two different tenses. One of the characters is an Iranian man whose first language is Farsi, and his story is told in English in present tense, whereas the other main character, a young American woman in her twenties, tells her story in past tense. I was so intrigued when I noticed the differing tenses. My guess is that the Iranian man’s story works so well in present tense because English is his second language and frequently, until one has mastered a language, that person might default to simple present whether describing something that is happening in the present, or has already happened. “Yesterday, I go to the store and buy groceries.” That kind of thing. The plot of the story unfolds in present tense for him, past tense for her. I wonder if Dubus made that choice consciously, or if it simply flowed from the narrators' voices. Either way, it feels natural and works brilliantly. In Part 2 of his novel, Dubus introduces the POV of a third character, this time in third close. So now we have not only two different tenses, but two different points of view for these three characters. And it works.
I had wanted to ask George what he thought about not only differing points of view but differing tenses between points of view. I then realized that the choice of the best way to tell the story is up to the writer, and it works when it works. The two characters in my novel seem to want to tell the story from two different points of view: one wants to tell it in first person, and the other, third close. I don't know why exactly, but that's the way it feels and that seems to be what the characters want. As far as tenses, I keep going back and forth between present and past, feeling out what seems most natural, and what serves the story best. So many decisions!
In the end, I didn't send my email because I kind of answered my own question. Listen to the characters and the story. Keep writing to find out what works.
The first thing that jumped into my mind was Michael Cunningham’s The Hours. Mrs. Woolf, Mrs. Brown, Mrs. Dalloway. The transition between the three on cues are so seamless!
The second thing that jumped into my mind was Cloud Atlas.
I recently re-read Bel Canto by Ann Patchett. I remembered loving it the first time but had forgotten why. One of the things that leapt out this time through was the many (many) POV shifts which, unbelievably, made the narrative flow rather than stutter.
The POV shifted through two main mechanisms/characters: 1) the reader is often bounced in (or out) of someone’s thinking when a character is fixating on the opera singer. Since the diva is a fascination for everyone there, everyone thinks about her often. So everyone’s thoughts are fair game. 2) the translator character is called on to speak to (and translate for) a house of international captives. These moments of translation were another stopping off point for a POV shift.
But that’s the mechanism of how she did it. How Ann Patchett made it into something mesmerising rather than distracting ...well, that’s the trick (and the talent).
I loved Bel Canto for many reasons, and yours was one.
I wrote a novel (set right after the 1989 San Francisco earthquake) with three POVs, one a first-person and the other two close thirds. Giving them alternating chapters helped with the structural movement into the differing minds and behaviors of lives that would had never intersected—and they intersected in often uncomfortable ways—had it not been for the quake.
Thanks as always George for posting evocative thought and questions.
First time commenter here. Loving this very useful conversation, as I am 18k words into a novel with 3 distinct POVs. Re: other examples of POV shifts, Jennifer Egan’s A Visit From the Goon Squad is the nonpareil IMHO. Truly remarkable, as she also shifts from first person to third to close third and even one unforgettable chapter in 2nd person. I recall no sense of cost in the shifts, either. The only stumbling block for me was an almost distracting amazement at the craft.
Hey Robert! It’s Lisa! Totally agree about Goon Squad- I’ve been an Egan fan since her first novel bc her cousin gave it to me. When I met her I discovered she’s a huge Who fan. Music is a big influence on her creativity.
In her brilliant book Steering The Craft, Ursula Le Guin says: "Unless handled with awareness and skill, frequent POV shifts jerk the reader around, bouncing in and out of incompatible identifications, confusing emotion, garbling the story." I reckon Ursula had a point there. So it all depends on how much awareness and skill you can bring to the table.
The first time I read "Puppy" I was really disappointed. I wondered how it made it into such a great collection. Then, on a second read some weeks later, and then a third and, eventually, many more reads, it has become one of my favorite short stories ever. I use it all the time to teach POV to literature students, noting how it acts not just as a "flashy" device, but how it profoundly affects meaning. It leads us to so many great discussions on perspective and experience beyond the pages of literature. It's a story that makes me want to read, makes me want to write, to teach, to empathize, to drive with my hand out the window under the autumnal sun!
Another note, I just read Moby Dick last year, thinking maybe I'd read it as a kid, and finding it not at all what I thought it would be, going off in so many different directions. I enjoyed it immensely, though I think if I had read it 50 years ago, I would have found it too long and slow..
I read it as a college freshman and forgot a lot. Then in grad school, a serious study. Then I listened to it in middle age and realized there was humor in it. Quite different experiences.
Me too, but I wish I’d read it sooner, because it’s radically reorienting my perspective on literature. And it’s so much fun! Something about the experience of reading it is reminding me of The Satanic Verses, which I loved but haven’t looked at for years.
The Questioner writes: "I haven’t been participating on Story Club lately except as a lurker. That’s because I’ve been writing" That is fantastic. You don't need my advice, but I want to cheer you on. Keep writing (and reading) and you will eventually solve all of your POV problems. (You say you've written with an omniscient narrator before, so you've probably done POV shifts already. Keep going! Go in and out of heads! Do one chapter with one character and the next chapter with another! Whatever works, keep experimenting--and I've no doubt you will find the right solution for this particular project which can only be written by you.)
In the original drafts, my critique group was finding that it didn't work for them. It's her story, they said, why have his POV there? My view was actually that it wasn't his or her story, it was their story, a story of their competing viewpoints and how they would affect one another.
They suggested that I drop his POV but I knew I could make it work, had to make it work to tell the story I wanted to tell. I thought about some of George's stories that do this so well, and I went back to read "The Falls" then re-read my draft and made one really simple observation.
I had begun my original draft with two sections narrated by one POV, and only in the third section did I jump to the other POV. The change I made was to insert a new section with his POV between these first two original sections in her POV, thereby making each section alternate from one POV to another. I think this massively dampened the cognitive dissonance of jumping into a second POV. In the earlier draft with two sections in one POV, too much expectation had been built up that it was her story but when they alternated, it was easier to accept. After I made that change, I was able to sell the story! So, thank you, George!
My introduction to this technique as a technique was Faulkner's "The Sound and the Fury" which, though I haven't looked at it in 50 years, still resonates, especially because it was followed shortly after by my seeing the film "Rashomon," which also tells the same story from multiple points of view.
Was there a little jerk when I moved from one POV to the other? Maybe, but I don't remember it. Probably little more than if I had written the preceding sentence as "Maybe; I don't remember it." Have I, since, used this technique? Only in a nonfiction book on NYC street people, where multiple neighborhood characters reflect on the local newsstand man, who also has a lot to say about himself -- and about them.
What I like about this particular use of multiple POVs, as opposed to getting those POVs through an omniscient narrator, is that each character becomes a not-completely-reliable narrator and it's up to me to sort out truth from falsehood.
What I love about George's thoughts on 'seeking a set of rules or guidance' is that it acknowledges the creative mind actually wanting and needing problems to solve. I wish this could be broadcast in education generally, because it seems to me that the point is often missed. I suppose because educators see the problems as a hindrance to the student reaching the end...to completing the work. Whereas, if they had the attitude: "That’s a knotty problem you've stumbled on. Have fun!" and left the creative mind to enjoy the tussle, more original solutions might surface? And the end would eventually be reached...perhaps a different end?
Nothing to do with the topic but only the example, my mother used to put me in a harness and tie me up outside, to keep me from falling into the canal that fronted our garden. My best friend, also 60 or 70 years ago, was tied outside by her mother in the same way. Two different continents. For one terrible moment reading the description here I was almost horrified by how brutal it sounded. Speaking, I guess, of POV after all.
Writing makes me happy, so if writing also makes you happy, I hope you continue to write, following your own guidance, and doing “what excites you.”
I can offer an example of how I shift between three characters in one long chapter. When I shift, I try to bring attention to the character in whose POV I am writing, by saying something explicit, such as “all the women laughed…all but M. that is…,” and I usually begin the new POV with a new paragraph. In another instance I say, “Listening dreamily to the tale, S. wondered….” And, to bring the reader's attention to the third character, I write, “Throughout the storytelling, A….” In that particular chapter I moved back and forth between the characters three or more times. The chapter is early in the book, so it is a way to introduce the three characters and each one’s reaction to a given situation. Otherwise, I may write an entire chapter focusing on one character’s POV and then will write the next chapter in another character’s POV.
Lately I’ve been writing a lot of dialog as a means for characters to express themselves and to build conflict but I’m unsure whether I like that much dialog and may change what they are expressing aloud to internal thoughts.
And I’m also writing a rough draft in a multiplicity of first-person viewpoints, as Faulkner did in As I Lay Dying, Orhan Pamuk did in My Name is Red, and of course, as Mr. Saunders did in Lincoln in the Bardo. But right now, I have no idea how it will end up, or even how the story will end.
Let us not forget the master of the literary pivot, Virginia Woolf, and I highly recommend either To the Lighthouse, or Mrs. Dalloway as examples. This is such a great conversation! But Woolf is a truly one of the first modernists to employ this technique of diving into individual psyches, one after the other. She usually uses some object, say a clock tower (like Big Ben) and then -- since her main characters are either all on various streets being given different views of the clock, or are sitting in their rooms hearing it chiming, the clock becomes the point of pivoting, and it allows her to enter into someone else's head who is either hearing or gazing at the clock, and as is usually the case in her writing, all characters converge physically at some point, such as at a dinner party or vacation house in the Hebrides. She would be a great, and classical, example of how to bring multiple personalities into the mix, and still remain in the third person or omniscient narrator. Just some thoughts from the sidelines today, but I couldn't help myself!
Mrs. Dalloway. Mrs Dalloway. Mrs.Dalloway. This person keeps coming up, and I have never read Mrs. Dalloway, and your mentioning Mrs. Dalloway just now reminded me again of Mrs. Dalloway, and I looked her up on my Amazon account because she sounded so familiar and yes, I ordered Mrs. Dalloway a week ago and she has been delivered and is sitting up in the laundry waiting patiently, or not, where packages are delivered. I will go soon and meet her and hope she's not too peeved being forgotten like this. Nor has he read To The Lighthouse, or anything by VW, for that matter, but he might now, and Mrs. Dalloway thinks this might be a good idea.
Today is a day in June, so of course it is the right time to read Mrs Dalloway.
Although it was warmer then than today in London.
Well, Tod, the universe beckons. And it's sitting on the laundry, which may be apropos, actually. Since laundries are part of the feminine domain, and since Woolf often hangs out in quotidian environments such as laundries, it's hugely symbolic that you have left her there. I suspect she won't hold it against you. She is, you know, in full control, having bought those flowers herself.
But if you enjoy this little gem of a masterpiece, then you must keep going, and get to To the Lighthouse (my ur-text), as it's even better in my humble opinion. But everything and anything she wrote is beyond wonderful. You will have to come back and tell me how you found Mrs. Dalloway.
p.s. Has anyone ever told you that you resemble Cormac McCarthy? Or is it just me? (smile)
We called our Irish Terrier Mrs Dalloway. She's 11 now and in failing health but hanging in there, and goes on a short bouncy run every morning after emptying her bowels. (It's become an almost ritualistic highlight of the day.)
To Woolf: @Tod, if you're of the type who likes an occasional shorter read that doesn't require the leaps of fiction, I highly and heartily recommend Street Haunting, her essay about walking around London in search of a pencil. If I was posted to a desert island and was allowed to bring with me just a dozen pages, I might well choose these.
To The Lighthouse (which I've only managed to read once) was utterly transporting in ways that are impossible to explain. It's like it just washes over you and brings you fully alive and embodied into that time and place. No sentence seems to stand out (indeed many feel difficult in the moment) but the whole is mesmerizing.
Enjoy the journey.
I'm looking forward it. Packing up now.
But one sentence stands out to me, even now:
Love had a thousand shapes.
Read To The Lighthouse! (Or George, perhaps you could put this on our reading list at some point?)
It's on my list.
So far it's just you.
You will be happier with Mrs. d than Cormac would have been, tho who knows?? Words are a mysterious thing.
You do look just like I think he looks.
It's early yet. Sally is floating heads of flowers in bowls of water.
But I'm very much liking seeing the world through Clarissa's kaleidoscopic eyes.
Also great timing jumping on Tash's Guided Tour.
For its size the book has a lot of gravity. Thank you for bringing it up here.
I'm looking forward to deepening a relationship with VW !
I've got Mrs. Dalloway in my reading stack right now.. Just reading your and Nancy Miller's comments is probably going to move Mrs. D closer to the top of the stack.
YAY! You won't be sorry.
She's now on the top of mine.
Once you open the book and get past the first sentence you can call her Clarissa.
I have To the Lilghthouse waiting too. Snuck a quick peak and it tried to pull me into the book right there on my way out the door. Keep an eye on that one
Thanks for the heads up.
I literally came here to say Mrs. Dalloway. It is so heart-warming to see how much she still means to everyone. @Tod you're going to love her!
Dalloway and Ulysses both came out in 1922. What a year!
Ulysses too is a miracle of seeing the world different pairs of eyes.
At one point, Bloom even says to himself: if we were all suddenly someone else.
I bought my first copy of Mrs Dalloway recently and it’s been sitting in the drawer, this makes me look forward to reading it even more :)
I read the question and what popped up in my mind is War and Peace. I don’t know how Tolstoy does it but he does and it’s magnificent.
And, to address the questioner—great question. Glad you are writing again. I concur with so much you said ,this is like the best workshop, college class, MFA class, writing group, master class rolled up in one. I feel so fortunate to have found my way here.
Yeah, also thinking of Tolstoy, but of his last novel, Resurrection.
There's an astonishing moment at the end of one chapter, about a third of the way through the book. Nearly all of the chapter has been from the POV of the main character, Nekhlyudov, as he navigates an elaborate dinner hosted by mother of the woman, Missy, who Nekhlyudov may potentially marry for political/social convenience. The dinner is simply a chance for the mother to vet Nekhlyudov as worthy (or not) of her daughter's hand. Missy herself is present, but we never get her POV or thoughts on the matter.
Until the last paragraph of the chapter. Here, Tolstoy presents not Missy thoughts on the possible marriage, but her thoughts on the inner character of Nekhlyudov himself. In a few short, sweet sentences, Tolstoy establishes that Missy already loves Nekhlyudov, and that her demeanor towards him is reflective of her belief that she already "considered him as her own." In this POV shift, Tolstoy not only immeasurably deepens one character (someone who, subconsciously, we wanted to hear from--how do you leave out the bride's POV?) but also establishes a conflict that will reverberate throughout the rest of the novel, that of love vs passion, and/or responsibility vs compulsion.
God, I love Tolstoy.
Me too. He does some similarly amazing things in the short novella "Hadji Murat."
God I love Tolstoy too. I came late to him..but to T.S. Eliot who said “Dante and Shakespeare divide the world between them. There is no third” I kind of think maybe there is a third.
The POV passage that resonates with me in War and Peace is the death of Petya, the 16 year old younger brother of Nicolai:
"‘Hurrah-ah-ah!’ shouted Petya, and without pausing a moment, galloped to the place whence came the sound of firing and where the smoke was thickest.
A volley was heard, and some bullets whistled past, while others plashed against something. The Cossacks and Dolokhov galloped after Petya into the gateway of the courtyard. In the dense wavering smoke some of the French threw down their arms and ran out of the bushes to meet the Cossacks, while others ran down the hill towards the pond. Petya was galloping along the courtyard, but instead of holding the reins he waved both his arms about rapidly and strangely, slipping farther and farther to one side in his saddle. His horse, having galloped up to a campfire that was smouldering in the morning light, stopped suddenly, and Petya fell heavily on to the wet ground. The Cossacks saw that his arms and legs jerked rapidly though his head was quite motionless. A bullet had pierced his skull.
After speaking to the senior French officer, who came out of the house with a white handkerchief tied to his sword and announced that they surrendered, Dolokhov dismounted and went up to Petya, who lay motionless with outstretched arms.
‘Done for!’ he said with a frown, and went to the gate to meet Denisov who was riding towards him.
‘Killed?’ cried Denisov, recognising from a distance the unmistakably lifeless attitude – very familiar to him – in which Petya’s body was lying.
‘Done for!’ repeated Dolokhov, as if the utterance of these words afforded him pleasure, and he quickly went up to the prisoners, who were surrounded by Cossacks who had hurried up. ‘We won’t take them!’ he called out to Denisov.
Denisov did not reply, he rode up to Petya, dismounted, and with trembling hands turned towards himself the blood-stained, mud-bespattered face, which had already gone white.
‘I am used to something sweet. Raisins, fine ones … take them all!’ he recalled Petya’s words. And the Cossacks looked round in surprise at the sound, like the yelp of a dog, with which Denisov turned away, walked to the wattle fence, and seized hold of it.
Among the Russian prisoners rescued by Denisov and Dolokhov was Pierre Bezukhov."
- and so back to the main story.
God, that is brilliant, and awful.
I keep Replying and my dog keeps interrupting with a ball. So if this is the third half-reply, blame it on Mick Jagger (my dog). Just wanted to say I’m just now reading War and Peace. (Probably a Saunders influence.) I had no idea it was funny! And it does bop around, POV-wise.
I hope your Mick Jagger keeps playing well into his eighties too! I just read War and Peace recently. Don’t know why I resisted for so long. But I read “A Swim in the Pond” by George Saunders and finally my resistance broke down —I devoured W&P and all I can say is —When the student is ready the teacher arrives.
I read a chapter first thing each morning from the Prevear /Volokhonsky translation. So much French! And hoisting the book itself fulfills my weight-bearing exercise goals for the day.
But I laugh a lot.
So weird to think of utterly vanished worlds.
But I’m getting off-topic on POV.
I love that you have a dog called Mick Jagger and I have a dog called Mrs Dalloway.
(Roddy Doyle's books had a dog called Larry Gogan after a veteran and very popular Irish DJ of the time.)
If my current cat, Aunt Frances, ever leaves me, I'll name her successor Mrs. Dalloway II.
Thanks so much for this! I have taught "Puppy" and, when I taught it for the first time, found that the internalization of Callie's perspective worked SO well on me that I was surprised with how harshly my students were judging her. I tried to point out that Marie, by certain lights, has her own, more expensive chain for her own troubled son: the video games, which keep him occupied without addressing any of his issues. But afterwards I wondered if I was engaging in excessive rationalization/relativism. In the same way, I judged Marie more harshly for abandoning the puppy (in the sense of not adopting it) than I judged Callie for literally abandoning it, to die, something Callie knowingly does (whereas Marie isn't thinking of that aspect, as instead she's thinking about her plan to unleash the State on Callie). Raises the question of the line between sympathy ("judge not Callie lest ye be judged, Marie") and condescension ("people like Callie can't help it but we of a better sort should know better") and whether in my reading I had lapsed more into the latter. Anyway, teaching it again this summer and excited to give more thought to all this!
This is wonderful! Thanks. The conventional outlook vs true distress.
I recently had this much written of an Office Hours question when this new Office Hours post appeared:
I am currently working on a novel that alternates between two main characters’ points of view. The project is in its nascent stages, so basic choices about tense and point of view for these two characters are looming large. I recently read Andres Dubus III's novel "House of Sand and Fog," which is told mainly from two different characters’ first person points of view—an two different tenses. One of the characters is an Iranian man whose first language is Farsi, and his story is told in English in present tense, whereas the other main character, a young American woman in her twenties, tells her story in past tense. I was so intrigued when I noticed the differing tenses. My guess is that the Iranian man’s story works so well in present tense because English is his second language and frequently, until one has mastered a language, that person might default to simple present whether describing something that is happening in the present, or has already happened. “Yesterday, I go to the store and buy groceries.” That kind of thing. The plot of the story unfolds in present tense for him, past tense for her. I wonder if Dubus made that choice consciously, or if it simply flowed from the narrators' voices. Either way, it feels natural and works brilliantly. In Part 2 of his novel, Dubus introduces the POV of a third character, this time in third close. So now we have not only two different tenses, but two different points of view for these three characters. And it works.
I had wanted to ask George what he thought about not only differing points of view but differing tenses between points of view. I then realized that the choice of the best way to tell the story is up to the writer, and it works when it works. The two characters in my novel seem to want to tell the story from two different points of view: one wants to tell it in first person, and the other, third close. I don't know why exactly, but that's the way it feels and that seems to be what the characters want. As far as tenses, I keep going back and forth between present and past, feeling out what seems most natural, and what serves the story best. So many decisions!
In the end, I didn't send my email because I kind of answered my own question. Listen to the characters and the story. Keep writing to find out what works.
"Keep writing to find out what works." Yes, that's it.
The first thing that jumped into my mind was Michael Cunningham’s The Hours. Mrs. Woolf, Mrs. Brown, Mrs. Dalloway. The transition between the three on cues are so seamless!
The second thing that jumped into my mind was Cloud Atlas.
Yes! Loved Cloud Atlas so much!
I recently re-read Bel Canto by Ann Patchett. I remembered loving it the first time but had forgotten why. One of the things that leapt out this time through was the many (many) POV shifts which, unbelievably, made the narrative flow rather than stutter.
The POV shifted through two main mechanisms/characters: 1) the reader is often bounced in (or out) of someone’s thinking when a character is fixating on the opera singer. Since the diva is a fascination for everyone there, everyone thinks about her often. So everyone’s thoughts are fair game. 2) the translator character is called on to speak to (and translate for) a house of international captives. These moments of translation were another stopping off point for a POV shift.
But that’s the mechanism of how she did it. How Ann Patchett made it into something mesmerising rather than distracting ...well, that’s the trick (and the talent).
I loved Bel Canto for many reasons, and yours was one.
I wrote a novel (set right after the 1989 San Francisco earthquake) with three POVs, one a first-person and the other two close thirds. Giving them alternating chapters helped with the structural movement into the differing minds and behaviors of lives that would had never intersected—and they intersected in often uncomfortable ways—had it not been for the quake.
Thanks as always George for posting evocative thought and questions.
Hi all,
First time commenter here. Loving this very useful conversation, as I am 18k words into a novel with 3 distinct POVs. Re: other examples of POV shifts, Jennifer Egan’s A Visit From the Goon Squad is the nonpareil IMHO. Truly remarkable, as she also shifts from first person to third to close third and even one unforgettable chapter in 2nd person. I recall no sense of cost in the shifts, either. The only stumbling block for me was an almost distracting amazement at the craft.
Hey Robert! It’s Lisa! Totally agree about Goon Squad- I’ve been an Egan fan since her first novel bc her cousin gave it to me. When I met her I discovered she’s a huge Who fan. Music is a big influence on her creativity.
In her brilliant book Steering The Craft, Ursula Le Guin says: "Unless handled with awareness and skill, frequent POV shifts jerk the reader around, bouncing in and out of incompatible identifications, confusing emotion, garbling the story." I reckon Ursula had a point there. So it all depends on how much awareness and skill you can bring to the table.
Yes! Great add to the conversation.
The first time I read "Puppy" I was really disappointed. I wondered how it made it into such a great collection. Then, on a second read some weeks later, and then a third and, eventually, many more reads, it has become one of my favorite short stories ever. I use it all the time to teach POV to literature students, noting how it acts not just as a "flashy" device, but how it profoundly affects meaning. It leads us to so many great discussions on perspective and experience beyond the pages of literature. It's a story that makes me want to read, makes me want to write, to teach, to empathize, to drive with my hand out the window under the autumnal sun!
Another note, I just read Moby Dick last year, thinking maybe I'd read it as a kid, and finding it not at all what I thought it would be, going off in so many different directions. I enjoyed it immensely, though I think if I had read it 50 years ago, I would have found it too long and slow..
I read it as a college freshman and forgot a lot. Then in grad school, a serious study. Then I listened to it in middle age and realized there was humor in it. Quite different experiences.
Me too, but I wish I’d read it sooner, because it’s radically reorienting my perspective on literature. And it’s so much fun! Something about the experience of reading it is reminding me of The Satanic Verses, which I loved but haven’t looked at for years.
The Questioner writes: "I haven’t been participating on Story Club lately except as a lurker. That’s because I’ve been writing" That is fantastic. You don't need my advice, but I want to cheer you on. Keep writing (and reading) and you will eventually solve all of your POV problems. (You say you've written with an omniscient narrator before, so you've probably done POV shifts already. Keep going! Go in and out of heads! Do one chapter with one character and the next chapter with another! Whatever works, keep experimenting--and I've no doubt you will find the right solution for this particular project which can only be written by you.)
I recently had this dual (or, as I like to think of this one, "duel") POV story published. https://dreamforge.mywebportal.app/dreamforge/stories/show/living-fossils-christopher-blake
In the original drafts, my critique group was finding that it didn't work for them. It's her story, they said, why have his POV there? My view was actually that it wasn't his or her story, it was their story, a story of their competing viewpoints and how they would affect one another.
They suggested that I drop his POV but I knew I could make it work, had to make it work to tell the story I wanted to tell. I thought about some of George's stories that do this so well, and I went back to read "The Falls" then re-read my draft and made one really simple observation.
I had begun my original draft with two sections narrated by one POV, and only in the third section did I jump to the other POV. The change I made was to insert a new section with his POV between these first two original sections in her POV, thereby making each section alternate from one POV to another. I think this massively dampened the cognitive dissonance of jumping into a second POV. In the earlier draft with two sections in one POV, too much expectation had been built up that it was her story but when they alternated, it was easier to accept. After I made that change, I was able to sell the story! So, thank you, George!
My introduction to this technique as a technique was Faulkner's "The Sound and the Fury" which, though I haven't looked at it in 50 years, still resonates, especially because it was followed shortly after by my seeing the film "Rashomon," which also tells the same story from multiple points of view.
Was there a little jerk when I moved from one POV to the other? Maybe, but I don't remember it. Probably little more than if I had written the preceding sentence as "Maybe; I don't remember it." Have I, since, used this technique? Only in a nonfiction book on NYC street people, where multiple neighborhood characters reflect on the local newsstand man, who also has a lot to say about himself -- and about them.
What I like about this particular use of multiple POVs, as opposed to getting those POVs through an omniscient narrator, is that each character becomes a not-completely-reliable narrator and it's up to me to sort out truth from falsehood.
The implicit challenge to the reader of sorting truth from falsehood (in longer fiction) is imo a plus in favour of multiple POVs.
Agreed -- though of course a similar effect can be achieved with a single unreliable narrator. But I think the Rashomon effect is more fun.
What I love about George's thoughts on 'seeking a set of rules or guidance' is that it acknowledges the creative mind actually wanting and needing problems to solve. I wish this could be broadcast in education generally, because it seems to me that the point is often missed. I suppose because educators see the problems as a hindrance to the student reaching the end...to completing the work. Whereas, if they had the attitude: "That’s a knotty problem you've stumbled on. Have fun!" and left the creative mind to enjoy the tussle, more original solutions might surface? And the end would eventually be reached...perhaps a different end?
Nothing to do with the topic but only the example, my mother used to put me in a harness and tie me up outside, to keep me from falling into the canal that fronted our garden. My best friend, also 60 or 70 years ago, was tied outside by her mother in the same way. Two different continents. For one terrible moment reading the description here I was almost horrified by how brutal it sounded. Speaking, I guess, of POV after all.
Writing makes me happy, so if writing also makes you happy, I hope you continue to write, following your own guidance, and doing “what excites you.”
I can offer an example of how I shift between three characters in one long chapter. When I shift, I try to bring attention to the character in whose POV I am writing, by saying something explicit, such as “all the women laughed…all but M. that is…,” and I usually begin the new POV with a new paragraph. In another instance I say, “Listening dreamily to the tale, S. wondered….” And, to bring the reader's attention to the third character, I write, “Throughout the storytelling, A….” In that particular chapter I moved back and forth between the characters three or more times. The chapter is early in the book, so it is a way to introduce the three characters and each one’s reaction to a given situation. Otherwise, I may write an entire chapter focusing on one character’s POV and then will write the next chapter in another character’s POV.
Lately I’ve been writing a lot of dialog as a means for characters to express themselves and to build conflict but I’m unsure whether I like that much dialog and may change what they are expressing aloud to internal thoughts.
And I’m also writing a rough draft in a multiplicity of first-person viewpoints, as Faulkner did in As I Lay Dying, Orhan Pamuk did in My Name is Red, and of course, as Mr. Saunders did in Lincoln in the Bardo. But right now, I have no idea how it will end up, or even how the story will end.